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River decision (Math correct but experience not)
swisspoker
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May 8, 2017 - 8:06 am
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Hey guys this is my first post here. So please let me know if the layout is fine. I made the post and missclick deleted it. yell

I had a decision on the river which is math wise fine but I don’t know if I should folded my hand there.

 

6max Blinds: 40/80 Ante: 20 Hero 2805 Villain 2276

 

Hero SB raise 188  AclubKheart

Villain BB defend

Flop: 3heart7heartKclub Hero bet 214 into 456 Villain called

Turn: 7spade Hero checked Villain bet 494 into 884 Hero called

River: 4club Hero checked Villain bet 915 into 1872 (445 behind) Hero called 

Villain showed Aspade7club and won.

I had i bad feeling by the river call i would say. What would you guys do different?

Thanks for your answers and have a good one, cheers! smile

Marco

almofadinhas
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May 8, 2017 - 12:21 pm
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Welcome to TPE!

I would raise  2.5x or 3x pre flop, because we are oop.

Pos flop I would play the same as you did, not sure what stakes you play, but small stakes i see many floats in this spot, so I just check call to collect from bluffs, raise leads to nothing, maybe some Kx will pay if you fire multiple barrel, but they will also bet if you check to them.

theginger45

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May 8, 2017 - 4:55 pm
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Bigger raise pre, but your postflop line is great. Would play this hand the same way a high % of the time, AK is one of your best bluff-catchers and villain can value-bet worse hands as well as bluffing fairly often. Betting turn is an option but it’s a much better card for villain’s range than yours, so slowing down is probably better. Nice hand.

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘math correct, experience not’. If the math is correct and the call is profitable, your experience doesn’t matter. If your experience is leading you to believe that the call is not profitable, then fold. It seems like you’re trying to come up with a justification for folding a profitable spot, based on the fact that you happened to have the worst hand in this instance. Try to stay away from this kind of thinking.

swisspoker
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May 8, 2017 - 5:25 pm
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Hey guys,

thanks for the fast answer! smile

@theginger45 These are true words. This thinking is really bad.. Thanks!

theginger45

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May 9, 2017 - 6:42 pm
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swisspoker said
Hey guys,

thanks for the fast answer! smile

@theginger45 These are true words. This thinking is really bad.. Thanks!  

Careful, don’t beat yourself up for it too hard. It takes time to build your thought processes. You’ll get there. 🙂

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Carlos
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May 11, 2017 - 2:26 am
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I’d bet turn and river. I think checking causes you to lose value from worse made hands that may check back river. Generally, if the player is not very good, you should be thinking value first, especially blind v blind where he is unlikely to believe you.

 

I think this hand is too strong to turn into a bluff catcher and I dont think most players in this game would raise you as a bluff on the turn or river.

almofadinhas
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May 11, 2017 - 12:05 pm
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Carlos said
I’d bet turn and river. I think checking causes you to lose value from worse made hands that may check back river. Generally, if the player is not very good, you should be thinking value first, especially blind v blind where he is unlikely to believe you.

 

I think this hand is too strong to turn into a bluff catcher and I dont think most players in this game would raise you as a bluff on the turn or river.  

What range do you give V, to call, with worst hands 3 barrels IP?

The Riceman
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May 18, 2017 - 4:10 pm
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Hmmm…hello Marco.

Yes my brother by the river I am getting a very  bad feeling here also. I guess Villain could have grabbed the initiative and be betting a flush draw after your check on the turn, but really, what is he betting in to you on the river that you beat, except a missed flush draw or other bluff? Ginger says the 7 is better for v’s range, but is it really likely V has a 7 here? I’d have a hard time believing it, so I might think V is bluff heavy here. But my warning sirens along with flashing lights (think Aliens) would be sounding.

I have a little project I am working on within poker. I have called it the “Listen To Your Inner Fedor Holz”.

In a nutshell, I am trying to listen to that voice of caution/ instinct/ experience which tells me… “Bro, I know you really want to call, but you are beat here”, or “Although I can’t tell you why, you should call here because he is bluffing”. Rarely, is that inner voice wrong. It can get it wrong…sometimes I am just so pissed off that I call in a spot my instinct is screaming at me to fold, only to find I scoop the pot. But 80%+ of the time? That voice knows its stuff. 

I often wonder whether the difference between Negraneu and Holz and myself is that they listen to their inner voice, and I do not. I usually “reason” myself into or out of a decision, only to wish in hindsight I had given in to my instinct.

I read a fantastic book called The Art Of Learning by Josh Waitzkin, chess prodigy and martial arts boss. I thoroughly recommend anybody who is interested in self- help or performance psychology to read it. He describes intuition as the bridge between the subconscious and conscious minds…ahh heck it’s way too involved to get in to here.

In any case as far as I am concerned Almo your last question is a good one, and I am interested in how Carlos (hey Carlos!) and Matt range villain here. 

My instinct here is “FOLD!”, although I bet in game I’d call, almost every time.

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Carlos
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May 23, 2017 - 3:27 pm
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almofadinhas said

What range do you give V, to call, with worst hands 3 barrels IP?  

Kx, A high, and any pair.

almofadinhas
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May 23, 2017 - 9:10 pm
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Carlos said

Kx, A high, and any pair.  

where do you find this calling stations? laugh

pos flop calling flop, turn and river with Kx, 22+ and A2+?

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Carlos
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May 26, 2017 - 3:46 am
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almofadinhas said

where do you find this calling stations? laugh

pos flop calling flop, turn and river with Kx, 22+ and A2+?  

Ignition Poker and most small stakes live tournaments in the US.

almofadinhas
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May 26, 2017 - 9:02 am
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I will take a look at that hehehe, thanks!

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