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June 25, 2010
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I know the bigdog hates raise folding -20 bb, but I feel like most/ all thinking players percieve any sort of raise in the 15-20 bb range as super strong, to the point where they basically assume you never fold. So if you had 18bb and you minraised xx, it's effectively the same thing as jamming your stack into the middle without risking your stack. You expect to get folds most of the time, and when you get shoved on by a somewhat competent player you expect his range to be pretty tight and can escape from your hand, still leaving yourself with 16bb which is an effective reshove stack. Personally i dont raise-fold -20bbs, but i have been thinking about this recently, and if applied with the correct frequencey I think it can be an effective tool to have in the bag, I'll call it the 17-20bb steal. Just wondering what your guys thoghts are on this, or anyone tbh.
Thanks
just wait till you see dip raise/fold 9BB.
raise/folding with less than 20BB is totally fine in certain spots. it all depends on the players behind and their tendencies.
TPE Management
March 17, 2010
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I think the key here is if you are going to bring raise/folding <20bb stacks into your game you should be minraising 100% of the time regardless of hand strength.
July 3, 2010
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Hagbard Celine said:
just wait till you see dip raise/fold 9BB.
raise/folding with less than 20BB is totally fine in certain spots. it all depends on the players behind and their tendencies.
That's one of the first things I thought of, too. I saw it a few times in the Sunday Million win. He raise/folded a short stack like this and also 3 bet/snap folded as a shorty, too.
October 6, 2010
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as soon as you min-raise-fold once, i would think that you would definitely want to do it with a hand that you can call off with next time, you dont want guys shoving on you really wide.
but if they are folding a whole lot then i would keep doing it
RonFezBuddy said:
I think the key here is if you are going to bring raise/folding <20bb stacks into your game you should be minraising 100% of the time regardless of hand strength.
I'm not a tourney expert by any means but I think Ron is right here…look at all the shallow game regs who play either with 20bb stacks or against 20bb effective stacks all day…they are min raise opening all positions, no matter what the hand is…even opening min SB into BB with 20bb effective isn't as easy to exploit as you might think! I don't see any reason why you couldn't min raise fold all sorts of stack sizes around this level. You just have to be comfortable in some interesting post flop spots.
June 25, 2010
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bennymacca said:
as soon as you min-raise-fold once, i would think that you would definitely want to do it with a hand that you can call off with next time, you dont want guys shoving on you really wide.
but if they are folding a whole lot then i would keep doing it
i agree with the responses itt, i always min raise open at 20bbs, but I think this is an interesting point brought up here. I would actually do the opposite, I would min-raise open light the second time, and strong the third, because if you min raise fold 22 bbs, then min-raise 20, people are going to give you so much credit, with the whole, the second raise looks strong/ he wouldn't be doing this without a good hand this time because he just got caught the last time. Then the third time I would raise with somthing I will call with cause they will be shoving super light then. But yeah thanks for the responses guys!
October 6, 2010
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thats a really good point actually, i like that.
June 25, 2010
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tyty, i have my moments lol
October 6, 2010
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hehe. mine are few and far between
July 3, 2010
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jshilling09 said:
bennymacca said:
as soon as you min-raise-fold once, i would think that you would definitely want to do it with a hand that you can call off with next time, you dont want guys shoving on you really wide.
but if they are folding a whole lot then i would keep doing it
i agree with the responses itt, i always min raise open at 20bbs, but I think this is an interesting point brought up here. I would actually do the opposite, I would min-raise open light the second time, and strong the third, because if you min raise fold 22 bbs, then min-raise 20, people are going to give you so much credit, with the whole, the second raise looks strong/ he wouldn't be doing this without a good hand this time because he just got caught the last time. Then the third time I would raise with somthing I will call with cause they will be shoving super light then. But yeah thanks for the responses guys!
Yeah, bigdog mentions this concept and it's been around for a while … the idea that people don't light raise consecutively so they probably snuck one through the first time but have a legit hand the next time.
I guess while we're on this subject I like 3 betting someone who just won a big pot because they will fold so often for fear of losing chips they just accumulated.
Such a fun game we play.
jshilling09 said:
bennymacca said:
as soon as you min-raise-fold once, i would think that you would definitely want to do it with a hand that you can call off with next time, you dont want guys shoving on you really wide.
but if they are folding a whole lot then i would keep doing it
i agree with the responses itt, i always min raise open at 20bbs, but I think this is an interesting point brought up here. I would actually do the opposite, I would min-raise open light the second time, and strong the third, because if you min raise fold 22 bbs, then min-raise 20, people are going to give you so much credit, with the whole, the second raise looks strong/ he wouldn't be doing this without a good hand this time because he just got caught the last time. Then the third time I would raise with somthing I will call with cause they will be shoving super light then. But yeah thanks for the responses guys!
I'm asking seriously and not trying to be a ****…but do you think people really pay attention that closely?
FkCoolers said:
jshilling09 said:
bennymacca said:
as soon as you min-raise-fold once, i would think that you would definitely want to do it with a hand that you can call off with next time, you dont want guys shoving on you really wide.
but if they are folding a whole lot then i would keep doing it
i agree with the responses itt, i always min raise open at 20bbs, but I think this is an interesting point brought up here. I would actually do the opposite, I would min-raise open light the second time, and strong the third, because if you min raise fold 22 bbs, then min-raise 20, people are going to give you so much credit, with the whole, the second raise looks strong/ he wouldn't be doing this without a good hand this time because he just got caught the last time. Then the third time I would raise with somthing I will call with cause they will be shoving super light then. But yeah thanks for the responses guys!
Yeah, bigdog mentions this concept and it's been around for a while … the idea that people don't light raise consecutively so they probably snuck one through the first time but have a legit hand the next time.
I guess while we're on this subject I like 3 betting someone who just won a big pot because they will fold so often for fear of losing chips they just accumulated.
Such a fun game we play.
I really like this point because it exploits the gambler's fallacy…basically people are more willing to gamble when they are losing and try to avoid risk when they are ahead. Great point I will need to start doing this more often! I think it might be even more exploitable for me in cash games.
June 25, 2010
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gobsmacked1 said:
jshilling09 said:
bennymacca said:
as soon as you min-raise-fold once, i would think that you would definitely want to do it with a hand that you can call off with next time, you dont want guys shoving on you really wide.
but if they are folding a whole lot then i would keep doing it
i agree with the responses itt, i always min raise open at 20bbs, but I think this is an interesting point brought up here. I would actually do the opposite, I would min-raise open light the second time, and strong the third, because if you min raise fold 22 bbs, then min-raise 20, people are going to give you so much credit, with the whole, the second raise looks strong/ he wouldn't be doing this without a good hand this time because he just got caught the last time. Then the third time I would raise with somthing I will call with cause they will be shoving super light then. But yeah thanks for the responses guys!
I'm asking seriously and not trying to be a ****…but do you think people really pay attention that closely?
Since you are asking seriously I will answer seriously. Yes. First off, when you are 20bbs deep you are usually ITM and fairly deep in the tournament. This means you and everyone has fewer tables up as it near the end of the session, the blinds do tons of damage to your stacks so you are looking for any spot you can take (such as the 3-bet shove spots in question), and everyone is paying closer attention to this tournament because obv there is tons of equity in play with your 10x+ stacks. So basically everyone is super focused on this stage of the tournament Also I am pretty sure you are allowed to say douche on the forum
(not that I think you are one don't worry, I think you're great
)
OK good point you make I didn't think of…it's different in cash perhaps where people are constantly grinding 6-9 tables…but like you said, deep in a tourney people will pay attention more and since every single decision can be the difference between busto and taking it down I can see the importance.
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