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Refusing to play poker when down to the final 3.
MovieFX
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January 26, 2016 - 7:19 pm
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Hi,

I’m wondering how common this is or if it is something that only happens at low stakes….

The majority of time over the last few weeks, when I get down to the final 3 or heads-up in a 9-45 SnG, I encounter players that will literally only fold or shove. I’ve been on a string of bad run-outs that leave me going out second or third after coming in with the big stack. Sure there is variance that will come back my way, but I’m still interested in playing more effectively in these spots.

I’d love to hear some counter-strategies.

When stacks are still deep, or I am way ahead, I tend to just min-raise everything and let them pick off as much as they want until I have something good. I’ll pick up a good % of pots in the mean time as they fold. I think this forces them to open up their shove range as well. They’ll have to shove any pair, any A, possibly any K (definitely if suited), any 2 Broadway. I’ve even caught people with hands like J7s and worse if they get caught in a rhythm and get too confident in my folding. When I’m doing this my shove-calling range tends to be any pair, A9s+, KJ+, down to other Broadway if things are getting desperate, ideally if suited.

When stacks get shallow I start to have a lot of trouble since folding a bunch of hands, or worse getting shoved on after min-raising light a few times can really hurt. I feel like I am forced in to a situation where I have to play Russian roulette with any two cards just to stay alive long enough to have a chance at being dealt something worth a shove.

I’ve also occasionally limped with AA, KK, AK, AQ hoping to induce a shove. While this has worked at times I don’t feel like it should be in my game. I regret it most times. I guess it could have some balancing value if I am covered and V shoves and actually gets to see my hand? My gut says no…Limping really only serves 1 purpose here. To get V to play a hand he would otherwise fold, get sucked in and lose some chips.

Thoughts or ideas?

From a mental game standpoint I have to say I get kinda mad at people when they do this even though it should make me happy in many situations. It’s like those action movie fight scenes where the opponent won’t fight back At least I stopped typing in chat, “Are you scared to play poker with me?”, hah.

Foucault

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January 26, 2016 - 9:09 pm
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Why do you consider this not playing poker? They pay their entry fee and they get to play however they want. Your job is to figure out how to beat it. A program like ICMizer or HRC can help you to study the math behind shove/fold/calling in these spots. It’s not going to be possible for anyone to tell you “call with this range but not that range” because it depends on a lot of factors, mostly stack sizes but also positions, payouts, etc. Reading between the lines, though, it sounds like you are playing too tight with shallow stacks because you are afraid to get all-in pre-flop without what you consider a very strong hand. You need to realize that when you fold a hand that would be a profitable shove or call, you are losing money, and when you make a profitable shove/call, you are gaining money, even if you end up losing pot. Making the right plays in these spots is outplaying your opponents, and making the wrong folds is getting outplayed. If you find that you just really don’t like getting all-in preflop, go play cash – but you’ll come to realize that there’s plenty of variance there too, it just manifests itself in different ways.

MovieFX
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January 27, 2016 - 1:36 pm
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I don’t mind getting it in at all. Even when deep I have some shoves mixed in depending on the situation.

I just find it odd when someone starts playing this way the moment they get heads up when they still have 30+BBs. I am talking about exactly shoving and folding with no other play mixed in. I was mostly posting to hear if this is common or not. I’m not talking about the final stages of a turbo with shove stacks. I’ve even seen this in a heads-up tournament from the first hand.

The subject of my post was tongue-in-cheek, but my humor can by dry. Sorry about that. I was fishing for thoughts on playing within this dynamic. For example, when someone starts playing this way and then suddenly limps or three-bets I think it looks extremely strong.

I admit I made my post too broad in scope. As always I appreciate your time in reading and replying. I’ll try and be more succinct.

 

A program like ICMizer or HRC can help you to study the math behind shove/fold/calling in these spots.

I’ll check’em out!

theginger45

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January 28, 2016 - 7:41 am
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Why are you trying to change the way your opponents play? You have no control over it. Your job as a player is to identify their strategy and then figure out the best way to beat it, nothing more than that. Andrew has outlined the way to approach it on a strategic level, but your original post was full of charged language like “catching people” and “playing Russian roulette” – none of this is strategic at all. It’s all judgments about your opponents that don’t take into consideration the possibility that maybe the reason they were playing that way is because your strategy meant it was the most profitable option for them! It’s possible your opponents were making big mistakes here, sure, but it’s also possible they were absolutely outplaying you! You don’t seem to have considered that possibility.

Your post is representative of a mental game leak on your part, not a strategic one. It’s not about whether you should be mad or happy when this happens, it’s about the fact that it shouldn’t carry an emotional stigma for you at all. The only question you should ever be asking when your opponent makes a play is “what’s the most profitable way to respond to this?”, not “why won’t they play poker with me”, or “why are they so bad”, or “why are they doing this”, etc. You’re stigmatising the situation and making it harder for yourself to respond to.

MovieFX
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January 28, 2016 - 12:13 pm
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theginger45 said
Why are you trying to change the way your opponents play? You have no control over it. Your job as a player is to identify their strategy and then figure out the best way to beat it, nothing more than that. …

….Your post is representative of a mental game leak on your part…

I absolutely agree. These points were exactly my motivation behind deciding to make my original post. If I didn’t identify this as a situation in which I could improve I wouldn’t have put myself out there for criticism wink. Now I have some ideas about how to attack it. Thanks for the reply!

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