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Razz Tournament Strategy Resources? Anyone? Anyone?
huge
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May 27, 2014 - 6:22 am
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I'm thinking of playing the $1500 Razz event at the WSOP in a few days, and, well, I've barely ever played any Razz.  I haven't done a thorough search of 2+2 yet, so I expect I can find some pointers there, and I have the FullTilt book with the Forrest/Seed dialogue.  I'd love to find some good beginner-intermediate level videos, and I have friends who can get me access to various sites, but I don't know where to look … CR?

 

I'm open to being told that this is an idiotic idea, but I've been told by a couple of people whose opinions I respect that the level of play in low-buyin Razz tournaments is so bad that just having a decent grasp of fundamentals will take you a fair distance.  The question is whether I can come up with a decent grasp in a couple of days of study when I also should be watching TPE videos and listening to TP podcasts, and packing.

 

If any of the pros here are Razz experts who might be available for an hour of coaching, let me know that too.

 

cheers,

-huge

BigSnowball
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May 27, 2014 - 3:15 pm
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A Brit, Matt Perrins, WON a bracelet couple years ago at his first attempt playing one of the games. He watched YouTube on the morning, admitted he didn’t know what was going on at first and still ended up winning six figures.

Not what I’d do with $1500 (mainly coz I’d be out within mins) but best of luck to you

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May 27, 2014 - 4:16 pm
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There's a lesser known 2p2 book called “Sklansky on Poker” that includes a section on Razz that I remember being decent. Honestly, though, I wouldn't do this if I were you. Even against a soft field I don't think your edge can be that large if you aren't familiar with the game, and I wouldn't think you'd enjoy it very much.

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Killingbird
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May 27, 2014 - 5:00 pm
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“Good old Razz.  I hate this game more than any game in the world.” – TJ Cloutier

I love watching this tourament back in the day on ESPN.

 

huge
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May 28, 2014 - 4:07 am
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Thanks for the replies, even the advice not to do it, and especially the classic video.

I'll consider the pros and cons – I'm sure that it would be more +EV overall to spend my time studying NLHE videos, articles, podcasts etc rather than trying to cram for Razz fundamentals, but (A) I just like the idea of learning a new game, (B) I've been advised that the number of terrible players is surprisingly large and that a little fundamental knowledge will give you a good chance of cashing at least, (C) the field size is so much lower than low-buy NLHE events that I imagine with some serious rungood and a little skill my chance of making a final table, while small to be sure, is probably higher in $1500 Razz than in any NLHE event, and lastly (D) my main Razz advice comes from my good friend and old-guard pro Chad Brown, who is in Mexico getting intense chemotherapy for his aggressive lyposarcoma tumor, and I kind of want to do it for him. 

I found some old Stox videos that look promising. 

 

We'll see … I won't do it if I'm not feeling great about my level of prep, plus I might still be crushing the $1K from the day before!

 

thanks all

-huge

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Killingbird
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May 28, 2014 - 9:11 am
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huge said:

 (D) my main Razz advice comes from my good friend and old-guard pro Chad Brown, who is in Mexico getting intense chemotherapy for his aggressive lyposarcoma tumor, and I kind of want to do it for him. 

This alone encourages me to say GO FOR IT!

ltcolumbo
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May 28, 2014 - 10:28 am
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FAR from a pro, but I can give you one tiny peice of advice. 

 

Watch for players that will fold after the last street.  They are your immediate targets.

 

oh and 9 hands are often turned into bluffs…

huge
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May 28, 2014 - 4:29 pm
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Killingbird said:

huge said:

 (D) my main Razz advice comes from my good friend and old-guard pro Chad Brown, who is in Mexico getting intense chemotherapy for his aggressive lyposarcoma tumor, and I kind of want to do it for him. 

This alone encourages me to say GO FOR IT!

Thanks KB – yeah the thought of giving him at least a good sweat is pretty damn appealing (and I'll confess to fantasies of doing more than that).  I'll still pass if I feel like I'd just be lighting money on fire – we'll see how much useful study I can get in in 48 hours. I'll certainly report back here if I play…

huge
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May 28, 2014 - 4:31 pm
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ltcolumbo said:

FAR from a pro, but I can give you one tiny peice of advice. 

 

Watch for players that will fold after the last street.  They are your immediate targets.

 

oh and 9 hands are often turned into bluffs…

Thanks!  At this point it's bite-sized nuggets of wisdom like that that are good for me.

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May 28, 2014 - 4:58 pm
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If you already have an understanding of basic strategy (starting hands, when to continue on 4th, on 5th, etc), I'll add this nugget concerning hand-reading. In good steal spots (you open a 6 with a 7, a Q, and a K showing behind you), the player showing the 7 might 3-bet any playable hand, so you can't read too much into his 3-bet. In cases where your own opening range won't be as wide, though, a 3-bet usually represents a premium hand.

So if you are UTG showing 5, and you open with the other players showing 8 K 5 9 2 8 K in that order, and the player holding the 5 3-bets you, you can assume he's weighted towards wheel cards. Many players won't 3-bet a 7 or 8 in this spot (and it's good to note those who will). Even more telling would be if the roles were reversed and if after raising UTG and getting 3-bet by you, Villain 4-bet. In this case 5(6A) might well be the bottom of his range.

In this case, an A or 2 is more likely than usual to pair one of his down cards, and you should be a bit more stubborn when he catches these cards. Conversely, a 7 or 8 is almost surely a good card for him and you should assume it did not pair him and play accordingly. Basically, pay attention to what kinds of hands people will 3- and 4-bet in various situations and take that into consideration when they seem to catch well on later streets.

huge
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May 30, 2014 - 4:34 pm
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Foucault said:

If you already have an understanding of basic strategy (starting hands, when to continue on 4th, on 5th, etc), I'll add this nugget concerning hand-reading. In good steal spots (you open a 6 with a 7, a Q, and a K showing behind you), the player showing the 7 might 3-bet any playable hand, so you can't read too much into his 3-bet. In cases where your own opening range won't be as wide, though, a 3-bet usually represents a premium hand.

So if you are UTG showing 5, and you open with the other players showing 8 K 5 9 2 8 K in that order, and the player holding the 5 3-bets you, you can assume he's weighted towards wheel cards. Many players won't 3-bet a 7 or 8 in this spot (and it's good to note those who will). Even more telling would be if the roles were reversed and if after raising UTG and getting 3-bet by you, Villain 4-bet. In this case 5(6A) might well be the bottom of his range.

In this case, an A or 2 is more likely than usual to pair one of his down cards, and you should be a bit more stubborn when he catches these cards. Conversely, a 7 or 8 is almost surely a good card for him and you should assume it did not pair him and play accordingly. Basically, pay attention to what kinds of hands people will 3- and 4-bet in various situations and take that into consideration when they seem to catch well on later streets.

Thanks Andrew (and others), that's excellent!  Honestly I didn't fully follow it at first read but after playing a bit yesterday (two STT's, one 3-way chop, busted 4th in the other, small profit in my first live Razz, sick brag) it makes more sense.  I did feel a little lost sometimes in resteal spots (facing or contemplating or proceeding after one) and your advice to be more positionally aware helps.  I'm pretty vague on how light I can be to resteal, but I think/hope at least my vagueness is vaguely in the right ballpark.  I saw some impressively bad play yesterday – dude called me on 4th and 5th with 555 showing vs my A39, then folded when he turned a 6(?).  And nearly everyone seemed to be saying they were playing the event today.
With hand-reading advice from Andrew Brokos & Chad Brown, it's hard to imagine how I can possibly not at least final-table the thing, right?
cards in the air in 2.5hrs…
takedown
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May 31, 2014 - 2:48 am
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huge said:

 

With hand-reading advice from Andrew Brokos & Chad Brown, it's hard to imagine how I can possibly not at least final-table the thing, right?
cards in the air in 2.5hrs…

Hah!  That'd be awesome.  gogogogo!

huge
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May 31, 2014 - 9:25 pm
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Thanks for the advice, all. I think I put in a solid effort, busted with ~100 left out of 352, busting in a big 3-way pot with (A8)542 vs xx6KK & xx5KJ when all my chips went in. Betting was capped on 4th street (yep, look back at the up-cards) leaving me one big bet to fire on 5th. Ironically if 4th isn’t capped I’m left with 2 bets, and just maybe they can fold their 3-card hands.
Oh yeah, I improve to a 75 on 6th, guy with KK catches turn & river for 65.

I enjoyed it (in a slow gruesome torture kind of way) and felt comfortable. Definitely made some mistakes that I’m aware of and I’m sure many more that I’m not, but think I did some things well – got an intensely grumbly fold with my busted wheel draw from an old guy showing 4689 – he was the only person at the table I thought capable of folding an 8.

Thanks for all the help. Too bad I didn’t make a deeper run, but I put myself in a good spot to do so, and now I have my first Razz bad beat story…

Sen
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June 6, 2014 - 7:59 am
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GG, just UL! Hellmuth finished 2nd if I am not mistaken?

So is there any good resource for Razz strategy?

jacobsharktank
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June 7, 2014 - 3:37 am
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This was a very informative post!

ttwist

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June 18, 2014 - 12:20 pm
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Fingers crossed, we are officially looking for a mixed game expert and made it public yesterday via social media.

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