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Question about suited vs. non-suited
derSchwartz
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November 14, 2013 - 1:10 pm
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I'm watching Danny's series on turbo MTT and he reminded me of this question I've had when he commented in a spot that he was folding T9o but might have shoved T9s.

There seems to be a statement in the air at poker games that suits don't matter when you make a decision preflop, or that “it only matters by 2%” and therefore barely enough to make a difference.  I've always been skeptical of this comment – that it is either misinterpretted, or it is used as a piece of misinformation given by seasoned players to novice players.

I've also wondered if perhaps this is more a true statement in cash games than it is in tourneys.

It seems to me that, yes, while TJo has many similarities to TJs, it is still very different, and that implied odds of a suited hand in some situations can make it extremely different.

CCuster 911
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November 14, 2013 - 9:49 pm
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Its roughly 3% it adds in terms of winning a hand.  Which sounds small, but is a decent amount, definitely enough to where some suited hands are shovs while the same hand unsuited is folds(almsot all ranges have wider suited ranges for example).

 

A lot of the value in suited cards, isnt necessairly in its flush making capabilities, but its draw making capabilities.  FD and combo draws are extremely powerful, especially heads up and especially when shallow stacks against aggressive players.  You can play them fairly fast, with never being bad, and maximize FE.  So if someone is c betting a lot and you have a decent draw, you can effectively gain a lot of value by simply exploiting your FE.

 

People overvalue a lot(in MTTs at least), the value of making flushes.   Most of the value in making flushes come in cooler spots, which you are not really making much no long term, because you will almsot just as often find yourself in the reverse spot(set v flush, or two pair v flush, etc.).  The value comes from maxtop imizing value when you dont hit flushes, adn knowing how to minimize losses in spots where people will chase down or simply shove thinking , “Flush draw, got to get it in!”. 

 

Having a flush draw doesnt make getting it in ok, even if you know your flush is always good.  This is where value comes in, knowing how to ply your draws, when to go for FE, when call because you are getting direct odds.

For Coaching - ccuster911@gmail.com - HH Reviews/Leak Finder(HEM or PT)/Concept Discussion

derSchwartz
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November 17, 2013 - 11:54 pm
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Thanks CCuster – that point about the ability to make draws vs. ability to make flushes is a good one.  I never really verbalized it to myself that way.  I have internally noticed the value of making flush draws but I am of course still learning how to capitalize on them and not to lose too many chips trying.

It is worth mentioning though, that some of the value is still in the flush, yeah?  I mean, if we are talking about shoving T9s over T9o preflop, the draws wouldn't really help much.

Glad to hear confirmation that we should be paying attention, ready to distinguish the times when it matters that a hand is suited and when it might even make the difference between close decisions.

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