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Question about *not* open raise/folding with under 20BB .. ironclad rule or rule of thumb?
derSchwartz
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November 5, 2014 - 12:04 am
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I am curious to learn/solidify the foundation and reasoning behind the “rule” that we don’t open raise with under 20BB and fold to a re-raise. I feel once I learn this I can understand better why I am utilizing this rule and when, if ever, to undermine it.

If I understand correctly, the main reason generally not to do this is because once antes kick in, the initial pot plus our open raise plus a re-shove to cover the rest of our stack at 20BB should provide us good pot odds to call. If we have 19BB, blinds are .5BB/1BB/.1BB and we are 9 handed, the initial pot is 2.4BB. If we minraise from MP, it’s 4.4BB. If the BB started with 19BB and re-shoves it’s a 22.4BB pot. We have to call 17BB. Provided that we are opening an appropriate range, our equity should be good enough against an appropriate re-shove range given the pot odds to call.

Is this a decent basic explanation?

A few other reasons I could imagine for this rule are:
-because otherwise our open raises look weak, like we might fold them more often than we actually would
-because otherwise we look like scared money
-because otherwise we are left with that much less than 20BB

Can the following be reasons to break the rule – to open raise and fold to a re-raise with under 20BB? Suppose you have 18-20BB and:
-It is the final table or near it and nobody has more than 20BB
-We have an excellent read on a villain
-With tight players in the SB and BB, we decide to open stab with a weak holding, and somehow our EV is negative against those villains if they re-shove?

Thanks for your thoughts. Have a good evening.

Wappie
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November 5, 2014 - 12:53 am
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Interesting question Schwartz,  I dont  want to hijack your question, but add something to your post.

 

This goes about the topic, “true” Big blinds.

 

Here a example:

 

our stack: 4484(18 bb shows our hud)

blinds 125/250 antes 25

Start pot: 575

Somewhere I read that when antes start increasing, then you should adjust to your “true” big blinds.

startpot; 575*.66=379  our stack;   4484:379= ~12 bb

With this assumption then we should start act as 12 bb stack and not like a 18 bb stack

What do you think about this, guys?

Foucault

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November 5, 2014 - 9:46 am
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derSchwartz said:

If I understand correctly, the main reason generally not to do this is because once antes kick in, the initial pot plus our open raise plus a re-shove to cover the rest of our stack at 20BB should provide us good pot odds to call. If we have 19BB, blinds are .5BB/1BB/.1BB and we are 9 handed, the initial pot is 2.4BB. If we minraise from MP, it's 4.4BB. If the BB started with 19BB and re-shoves it's a 22.4BB pot. We have to call 17BB. Provided that we are opening an appropriate range, our equity should be good enough against an appropriate re-shove range given the pot odds to call.
Is this a decent basic explanation?

A few other reasons I could imagine for this rule are:
-because otherwise our open raises look weak, like we might fold them more often than we actually would
-because otherwise we look like scared money
-because otherwise we are left with that much less than 20BB

Can the following be reasons to break the rule – to open raise and fold to a re-raise with under 20BB? Suppose you have 18-20BB and:
-It is the final table or near it and nobody has more than 20BB
-We have an excellent read on a villain
-With tight players in the SB and BB, we decide to open stab with a weak holding, and somehow our EV is negative against those villains if they re-shove?

Thanks for your thoughts. Have a good evening.

Hi DS. Your initial summary of why you wouldn't often raise-fold such a stack is a good one. The “few other reasons” you list are, to be blunt, crap. If your opponents start jamming too wide against your open raises, that's a good thing for you, because although you might fold your weakest hands more than you'd like, you'll win more with the rest of your range. The other two points, about “scared money” and being left with less than 20BB, don't seem to me to be connected to EV in any way.

Did you ever pick up the premium podcasts? Nate and I talk a bit about this. But yes, there's no rule that you have to call a shove if it's -EV to do so. So if you are confident that you don't have a +EV call against V's shoving range, either because of straight cEV or because of ICM, then you should fold. You should be aware, though, that if ICM is going to force you to fold an otherwise profitable call, it may be a bad idea to open in the first place, because smart opponents can jam really wide on you to take advantage of that.

This is something I do most often in EP. It may be that I have a hand good enough to get in against a jam from the blinds or a late position player, but if I open AJo UTG1 and UTG2 shoves for 18BBs, I probably want to fold.

If you are literally never folding after open raising, then you probably shouldn't be open raising at all and rather just shove.

derSchwartz
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November 5, 2014 - 11:31 am
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Thanks for the prompt response Andrew,

I was pretty sure that there will be occasions where the EV of calling won't be positive (whether it's because of our wide open range or their tight reshove range, or ICM or whatever) and that in those cases we should not call.  I've started picking up on situations where I should open fold because if I open I'm very likely to get reshoved on, getting unfavorable odds and equity if it did happen.  I'm also picking up on times to call a reshove with my KTo because even though it looks ugly, the EV is +, all things considered.

As usual, the hard part is largely being confident that the moves I'm making are actually good moves, or knowing if a move I didn't feel good about is actually a bad move.  Knowing where our mistakes and good moves are seems like half the battle.

I do have the premium podcasts, but I've only listened to the first two installments so far (twice each, actually) because I'm also up to my chin with TPE videos and podcasts that I have yet to get through.  I know stack sizes in general have been central to your discussions in the second podcast, but I think I still have yet to get to the podcast discussions specifically about this 20BB stack issue.  Thank you for the heads up.

derSchwartz
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November 5, 2014 - 1:35 pm
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Wappie said:

This goes about the topic, “true” Big blinds.

 

Here a example:

 

our stack: 4484(18 bb shows our hud)

blinds 125/250 antes 25

Start pot: 575

Somewhere I read that when antes start increasing, then you should adjust to your “true” big blinds.

startpot; 575*.66=379  our stack;   4484:379= ~12 bb

With this assumption then we should start act as 12 bb stack and not like a 18 bb stack

What do you think about this, guys?

It kind of sounds like you're talking about “M” vs “BB” depictions of a stack size?  ie. being aware that large ante situations eat away at your stack faster than small or no ante situations do?  As long as you are aware of how the antes are impacting you, it is probably fine to view your stack in either or any way.  If that's not what you're referencing, I'm not sure.

Wappie
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November 6, 2014 - 1:12 am
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Yes, exactly you call call it “M”, but I didn`t want use “M” cause the most openshoving ranges use BB anounced by the hud.

 

1.

Were you normally would say, I dont openshove with A2 from the hijack with 18 BB, but if we calculate our “true” BB (so maybe 12bb)

then A2 would maybe be a shove, isnt?

 

2.

With 18BB(by hud) we could openraise-fold to steal the blinds and fold to a 3b or 3bet shove.

But if in this situation the “true” BB would be 12BB(calculated by ourselfs) then openraise-fold would be a disaster, no?

theginger45

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November 10, 2014 - 3:24 am
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You can absolutely raise/fold under 20bb. It’s barely even a rule of thumb at this point. People are starting to raise/fold pretty frequently all the way down to 10-12bb in certain spots.

Probably the only point where you’re literally unable to raise/fold any hand to any shoving range is at around 8-9bb or so depending on ante level. Beyond that, it’s all about the hand you have and the odds you’re getting vs a shove. As Andrew has pointed out, it’s all about the EV of the situation.

DannyN13

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November 14, 2014 - 4:34 pm
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Yeah agree with Andrew and Ginger here. If you are going to have a generalized rule of thumb for a stack you arent raise/folding atleast make it 15 bbs or less. And even then, you will be in situations where you are raise folding hands such as 77, AJ etc when you open 15 bbs and are faced with a 3 bet and cold 4 bet.  If you aren't raise folding between 15-20 bbs these days, you probably aren't adjusting properly to today's game.

lapp3r30
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November 15, 2014 - 6:27 am
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Thanks for confirming what I’ve been doing Danny and Ginger. I play a local casino tournie, that I’ve done quite well at, and I will frequently open/fold 14-16 BBs just because reshove ranges are so tight. Along w stacks being very shallow… One thing I am working on as I type this is what sort of hands I can be calling reshoves w dependent on villain stack size.

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