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Question about cbetting
almofadinhas
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October 6, 2017 - 11:45 pm
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Hey TPE!

I was having an argument about cbetting or not this hand, I was thinking if i bet i should make it small, or check, I was not sure about what V´s calling range is, but i am pretty sure i wont be much ahead here.

I gave V a range of TT-22, ATs-A2s, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, ATo, KJo+, QJo, JTo … maybe a few instances where V may call JJ-AA to set a trap, but not sure how frequent that will happen. Is this too wide of a range for a CO call?

I was wondering if I should cbet for protection and value, or check and leave V with this range that i am ahead of. Apreciate your thoughts!

Merge, $10 Buy-in (800/1,600 blinds, 160 ante) No Limit Hold’em Tournament, 7 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager – The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: 16,199 (10.1 bb)
BB: 27,434 (17.1 bb)
Hero (MP1): 50,102 (31.3 bb)
MP2: 29,586 (18.5 bb)
MP3: 23,819 (14.9 bb)
CO: 23,024 (14.4 bb)
BTN: 36,024 (22.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 9heart 9diamond
Hero raises to 3,200, MP2 folds, MP3 calls 3,200, 4 folds

Flop: (9,920) Tspade 4club Tdiamond (2 players)
Hero ?

checks, MP3 bets 20,459 and is all-in, Hero calls 20,459

Turn: (50,838) 5diamond (2 players, 1 is all-in)
River: (50,838) 6heart (2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: 50,838 pot
Final Board: Tspade 4club Tdiamond 5diamond 6heart
Hero showed 9heart 9diamond and won 50,838 (27,019 net)
MP3 showed 3club 3diamond and lost (-23,819 net)

DuckinDaDeck
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October 8, 2017 - 8:12 am
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Hard to range villain, at this stack depth I think it’s a mistake to flat any hand. Although slowplaying big pairs is tempting, by doing so villain will be incredibly unbalanced, or flatting too many hands that would prefer to shove or fold.

I think its a close decision between c-betting or checking to induce aggression from a wider range, but I prefer a small c-bet. I’ll be back after my Sunday grind to explain. Apparently writing about poker before ingesting lots of coffee is a recipe for convoluted gibberish.

Collin Moshman

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October 9, 2017 - 9:41 am
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We need to give a lot of thought to our opponent’s range. What this will come down to is what type of player he is. The reason is that good players shouldn’t really flat much facing a raise with a 15bb stack, exactly like DuckinDaDeck says. So if he’s a reg or someone who seems good, then this there is a much higher-than-normal chance that this is a trap with KK+. 

If he’s a recreational player, he might not be thinking about stacks, and could still be on a wide range. In this case, I would cbet small for value/protection and happily stack off. 

If you don’t have any reads, I would assume in an $11 MTT that he’s a recreational player flatting a wide range and just bet/GII.

DuckinDaDeck
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October 11, 2017 - 2:14 pm
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I agree with Collin that against some players we need to be really cautious here. I definitely don’t want to recommend it as a default approach, but I have been in similar situations against unimaginative regs where I think the only play was to check/fold flop. Not that I often have the insight to do so at the table, but sometimes during postgame review I realize that not doing so was a clear mistake. It feels weird folding on this kind of flop when we would have snap-called a shove preflop, but we should be really happy that villain failed to maximize the value of a big pair by turning their hand face up.

If we can assign villain a range of KK+ with >=90% confidence, I think we can afford the small chance that we are being outplayed by a creative line. You can calculate this exactly by doing confidence interval math, but I’m rusty enough on statistics (and lazy enough) that I’m happy going with the ‘logic-based’ analysis here. That being said, as a general rule in <=$22 MTTs, I think enough TAG regs are making preflop errors that I’m usually happy going with nines here.

To better define ranges, I think we should ask ourselves “what mistakes do I expect recreational/newer players to make?”

1. Playing unpaired big card hands and small to medium pocket pairs passively preflop

2. Overvaluing protection of weak made hands postflop

3. Being overly afraid of folding the best hand / Assigning our range a disproportionate amount of unpaired high card hands

That’s off the top of my head and I’d love to hear other opinions on the most common mistakes. I think a huge part of being a winning MTT player is winning the maximum from the weaker players. My studying tends to focus on playing well against the #BadRegs and better players, so I feel I have a lot of room to improve in this area.

I think the flatting range you assigned is a bit too wide, but in the right ballpark. Mainly I feel villain won’t flat many non-Broadway suited connectors. I would prefer to work with something like:

AA-QQ(1/2 combos),JJ-TT(1/3 combos),99-22,AK/AQs(1/2),AJs-A7s,KJs+,QJs,JTs,T9s,AK/AQo(1/2),AJ-A9o,KQo

Ignoring the small chance of TT(0.33 combos), villain has 25 combos that have us crushed and 108 combos that we are well ahead of. I think we can expect villain to go with all pocket pairs, and call once with most A highs.

When considering a cbet, I think we should ask ourselves 2 questions:

1. Which hands does villain fold to a cbet which may bet and/or call future bets without improving?

2. How much does giving a free card hurt us against villain’s range?

I don’t have enough time to analyze those questions right now, but I hope this was helpful.

Assassinato
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October 11, 2017 - 7:58 pm
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Something that really helps me in this spot is seeing if the person has turn and river aggression frequencies exceeding 30%. If they do not, I can C-bet (getting ace highs to call), let them bet some turns, and rest assured if they fire river then they probably have something.

If the guy has a wide VPIP, say 25 or higher, and no fold to continuation bet then many times I bet 1/3rd, half, half. People call down absurdly wide now, and I have had great success with this line,

Yes, it’s exploitable, but most people are not raising 88 there for value on the flop like they should be doing 40% of the time. They instead do it 0% of the time, and call with ace highs twice, which adds up quite nicely.

The river bet is more or less a blocker, very thin.

In a $11 game (did I read that right) always go for value. Many absurd call downs to be had. 

almofadinhas
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October 12, 2017 - 12:53 am
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Great answers here! Thanks so much for it! It is really helpfull!

DDD, I notice you gave V a more balanced range, and to be honest at the time I didn´t realize he had 15bbs and should be not calling, I only thought about that when you mention actually, I will start to look for it closely, as I am possible letting this go on analises and when playing.

I was affraid to cbet and narrow V´s range/cleaning up my equity when cbetting, so I let V be there with a wider range and try to extract value from in on later streets. I need to buy CREv or HRC soon to make this analises easier.

@Assassinato, yeah, this is a $11 tournament hehehe, I used to be super affraid of $11 mtts, thinking field would be better and stuff, but i see how bad they actually are, now I have the same fear of the $15 to $30 that I am trying to add in my session, makes not much sense but I am trying to deal better with this nonsense haha.

Besides to give players too much credit, I was going for a line more like ck, bet, bet, than betting 3 times for value on a spot like this, I don´t think it will aply on this one with low SPR

theginger45

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October 12, 2017 - 12:33 pm
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I think the range you’ve originally given villain is much, much too wide, unless you’re extremely confident the player has no idea about how to adapt to stack sizes and will flat the same range at 15bb as they will at 100bb.

Even with this in mind, I think there are really only two options here – bet/get it in, which is fine if you expect villain to be comfortable getting it in with all pairs and some Ace highs on this flop, or check/shove. I think in most cases bet/get it in is better, but against a villain who might be prone to stabbing flop with a lot of the hands they’re otherwise folding to a bet (QJ, KQ, etc), then we might get more EV out of check-jamming.

Generally though, you have 99 on TT4 with 13bb behind and 6.5bb in the pot. As long as you don’t end up folding, it’s hard to make a mistake here.

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