Home
(2 votes) 
February 17, 2014
Offline
My thoughts at the end of the thread:
————————
Poker Stars $5.00+$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t125/t250 Blinds + t30 – 8 players – View hand 2506818
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter
Skipijslv (BTN): BB = 10.1, t2514
dramir100 (SB): BB = 98.0, t24498
Grindermtl (BB): BB = 82.5, t20631
BagOfGifts (UTG): BB = 76.1, t19016
JacKJoKKer (UTG+1): BB = 35.1, t8783
edg40 (MP1): BB = 49.0, t12248
Hero (MP2): BB = 29.2, t7291
willianmelo (CO): BB = 62.7, t15684
Pre Flop: (t615) Hero is MP2 with T
Q
3 folds, Hero raises to t526, willianmelo calls t526, 3 folds
Flop: (t1667) 6 8
Q
(2 players)
Hero checks, willianmelo bets t750, Hero calls t750
Turn: (t3167) 3
(2 players)
Hero checks, willianmelo checks
River: (t3167) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets t1420, willianmelo raises to t3090, Hero calls t1670
————————
1. I check the flop for pot control.
2. When he checks behind in the turn I know he has no Q cuz he would 2nd barrell that most of the time. Altough the 8 scared me I was decided to valuebet the river for thin value if he checked behind the turn because he might had betted the flop with a wide range since I showed weakness passing on the cbet.
3. Now the call is terrible. I think his range is polarized: either bluffs or an 8 or a full house, in that case, the options should be shove or fold never call!
October 21, 2013
Offline
EstoEsPenarol said:
1. I check the flop for pot control.
2. When he checks behind in the turn I know he has no Q cuz he would 2nd barrell that most of the time. Altough the 8 scared me I was decided to valuebet the river for thin value if he checked behind the turn because he might had betted the flop with a wide range since I showed weakness passing on the cbet.
3. Now the call is terrible. I think his range is polarized: either bluffs or an 8 or a full house, in that case, the options should be shove or fold never call!
1. I like the check calling line on the flop: we dont have a clear value target (no Q lesseer than ours, and i dont see a lot of 8s in vill PF range)
2. Not entirely true, if he is decent he is going to check back a lot of Qs here for the same reasons you didnt c bet on this flop: he doesnt have a clear value target/ the target he has is not strong enough to withstand 3 barrels = he is most times gonna get 2 streets out of you , Flopand river since the board is so dry. On the river you say you value bet, whats your target ? 55 ? A6 ? well these hands are never going to call 1/2 pot bet imo, so either you bet a lot less like 25-30% pot (something like 888) ORyou check again and you give him a chance to bluff ( i know nothing about villain but a lot of hands missed like JT, 97s, T9, etcetc). It's true that he is gonna check back a lot but imo we dont lose that much value when he does.
3. Please dont ever say that, i agree that the call is terrible but please dont say that here you should be either SHOVING or folding: here you got only one option–> FOLD, he always has it, you are playing a 5$ mtt usually river aggression is not a bluff.
my 2 c , sorry for my writing skills, english is not my first language =)
May 13, 2014
Offline
your whole way of thinking is wrong here. if you are going to raise with q10 and flop top pair then you cant play it too scared. i like bet flop, bet turn check and reassess on the river.if the range you put him on is a bluff, 8 or boat then why is shove or fold you only options? call or fold are you only options, if he is bluffing and you shove then he folds so it does nothing for you and obviously if you shove and he has the goods he calls.
March 26, 2013
Offline
Raise preflop is fine.
Flop: Just bet for value. You get calls from floats, some draws, some medium pairs, even some A high hands given the dry texture. I'm not checking top pair here often if at all.
Turn: As played, I think you have to check / call having checked the flop so when it goes check / check I feel my hand is good here most of the time.
River: I like the river value bet and the raise is very unexpected. I think medium pairs and Q high hands are likely to just call here so agree that this is either an 8 or slowplayed 66 / 33 on turn or air. I also disagree that you need to either shove or fold. If you shove knowing he has a polarised range then two things happen – 1) he folds his air, 2) he calls with hands that beat you. Therefore, I think I would call here as we only need to be winning 21% or more of the time here to show a profit. So, the key question for you here is whether this villain's range contains more than 21% of bluffs?
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
Offline
Very good hand to post. I like your line except, as you say, for the river call. I might have slightly different reasons for taking this line, though:
1. Flop. It's hard to pot control from out of position. Even if you check, your opponent can put a bet into the pot if he wants to on any given street. I'd think of the check as weakening your perceived range in your opponent's eyes, so that you can induce bluffs and/or get paid off by weaker hands on future streets. My Getting Paid series goes into a lot more detail about this.
2. Turn. Another good check, and I agree with your reasoning, more or less. Villain's check could be a slightly better Q, but in all likelihood you have the best hand after this action.
3. River. Even on a bad river, I think your hand is strong enough to bet for value. Although a fold would be exploitable, I think you can safely assume that you aren't getting bluff-raised on the river in a $5 MTT, and consequently you will be expoiting your opponent's overly passive river tendencies by folding.
You're correct that you only beat a bluff, and that narrows your options to CALLING or folding, not shoving or folding. Shoving into a polarized range would be a big mistake, because as others have pointed out, even if you can beat all of his bluffs you are just putting a bunch more money into the pot on the occasions that he isn't bluffing. But yeah, just fold to the raise. Honestly though that's a small mistake and I think you played the hand well.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
Offline
dwf1029 said:
your whole way of thinking is wrong here. if you are going to raise with q10 and flop top pair then you cant play it too scared.
That's not true. Most of the value of raising this hand comes from stealing blinds, not from flopping top pair and playing a big pot. A cold caller should have a stronger range than a pre-flop raiser, especially in a tournament with antes and shallow stacks, so it makes sense to play defensively with a medium-strength hand in a situation like this.
February 17, 2014
Offline
Great advice and debate, thanks to all!
May 13, 2014
Offline
Foucault said:
dwf1029 said:
your whole way of thinking is wrong here. if you are going to raise with q10 and flop top pair then you cant play it too scared.
That's not true. Most of the value of raising this hand comes from stealing blinds, not from flopping top pair and playing a big pot. A cold caller should have a stronger range than a pre-flop raiser, especially in a tournament with antes and shallow stacks, so it makes sense to play defensively with a medium-strength hand in a situation like this.
im not saying to jam it in there, but flopping top pair and then check calling instead of betting is putting more money in the pot, losing control of the pot and not having as much info as betting into him. im not saying bet big and goo with it but im saying if you flop top pair here imo the best option is to bet it. i think flopping top pair and just checking it twice i think your losing value trying to be a little too cautious.
TPE Management
April 6, 2010
Offline
we discuss this hand on the new podcast with Ben Warrington. check it!
February 17, 2014
Offline
Killingbird said:
we discuss this hand on the new podcast with Ben Warrington. check it!
Awesome podcast! Learned a lot from it. And sorry for not putting up the result, thought it was hidden on the original post but its not: the guy did had an 8, something like 89 or 8T if I recall correctly!
And yes, my nickname is spanish and efectively the villain was brazilian.
Cheers!
October 21, 2012
Offline
Snowie plays it the same as you.
I love Diego's line of reasoning as to why the flop could be a check. He was spot on.
I also disagree that you should be trying to double in this spot. My first thought was double against what hand?
Ben says that if you check your top pair hands, your c-betting range will be too weak. I disagree as long as we are betting KQ+ and our open enders here. Polarized is not the same as weak. In fact, I think the opposite of what he said is true, that is, if you bet all your marginal top pair and hands like JJ here, then your checking range will be too weak. My guess it that his check raises are too weak and I dont even know what he check calls if he's betting hands like this.
My guess is that he is rarely checking (which seems weird seeing as how he is OOP), but mostly giving up when he does. The good thing about his strategy is that although his cbetting range is too strong, what can villain do about it? Fold more? It seems like the exploit is to not pay him off with weak hands and stack him whenever you bink something (assuming Ben would call a shove on any street with just the top pair) I'm not sure about this though and even if it is right, I think Ben will benefit from so many folds that it might be worth it.
Ben is unbalanced here, but the way most people play does not exploit it. They will usually call one or two streets with weaker hands and chase draws. This seems to fall right into his hands. I guess they could avoid that by playing a tighter range pre and 3betting more.
Now that a think about it, this flatting range should probably be pocket pair heavy. In that case, villain can play set or whiffs perfectly.
Rambling here, but long story short, I see merits to GTO which calls for a flop check and the aggro style Ben advocates. Guess it all depends on villain's and the field's skill level.
Most Users Ever Online: 2780
Currently Online:
48 Guest(s)
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
bennymacca: 2616
Foucault: 2067
folding_aces_pre_yo: 1133
praetor: 1033
theginger45: 924
P-aire 146: 832
Turbulence: 768
The Riceman: 731
duggs: 591
florianm1: 588
Newest Members:
adrianvaida2525
Anteeater
Laggro
Philbro
acekingsuited
Lber16
Forum Stats:
Groups: 4
Forums: 24
Topics: 12705
Posts: 75003
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1063
Members: 12005
Moderators: 2
Admins: 5
Administrators: RonFezBuddy, Killingbird, Tournament Poker Edge Staff, ttwist, Carlos
Moderators: sitelock, sitelock_1
