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June 3, 2012
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This is a live tourney at the borgata summer open, 400 buy in. I would definitely like to know everyone thoughts on this hand. The chip values are approximate as I cant recall exact.
Villian has been pretty active, I have been pretty tight.
Hero -37k
Villian – had me covered maybe about 45 or so
Blinds – 200/400 ante 50
Hero -UTG
Villian – UTG +1
Pre flop – Hero raises to 800 with QQ, Villian raises to 2100, everyone else folds. Hero calls.
Flop – 5c, 7h, 10d
Hero checks, villian checks
Turn – 8d
Hero bets 2300, villian raises to 9k
Lets start the discussion here…pre flop is that a 4bet fold, or 4bet call? Or is flatting fine? I was thinking we were to deep to get it in with queens there and if an overcard hit, I could easily get away. Then what should I do on the turn, call and re-evaluate the river with the intentions of calling almost any card except an A or K? My bet was probably to big to begin with, but then that raise is also huge. Thoughts?
May 30, 2012
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You played it fine preflop. Unless the villain is a spewtard, he's not getting it in with jj here, and probably not ak if we 4 bet. We are going to be crushed almost always if we 4 bet call here I think. His 3 bet range should be pretty tight here anyway considering you opened utg and have been tight yourself. Like jj+ and ak if this is a 9 handed table. I really don't understand his check back on the flop if he has a value hand like jj+. Your perceived range should be a lot of pocket pairs, and aqss+ basically. maybe some hands like qjss or j10ss. I think he could check back that flop with ak becasue he doesnt think he is getting a lot of folds, and it's a good flop for your range, but raising the turn with ak is weird too unless he has akdd. I think that's a pretty likely hand actually, especially with the size of his turn raise. 90bb is a lot to get in with just one pair, but in this case I would be awfully tempted to just jam. I just don't see him having a made hand here very often at all.
I mean if the player isn't very good then maybe he is 3 betting a wider range in this spot, and could have a set of tens, but evens so I think he would be much more likely to flat preflop. I think I would just go with my read here and 3 bet shove turn. I dont really like flatting especially if we think we are up against a big draw. Of course it would allow us to get away if an ace, king or diamond peeled and he bet big, but we can get it in as a pretty big favorite with just one card left to come. It would be pretty hard for him to call of too. He probably shouldn't given our range and pot odds, but we are happy if he does.
May 30, 2012
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^ agree with above, AKdd AQdd KQdd JQdd but weighted towards AKdd
flat> 4bet/call> 4bet/fold imo
also when you say active do you mean stupid active or good active, if he has been 3betting alot and doesnt like to fold and has taking down pots postflop by being hyper agg, or has shown he has a 5bet bluff range, im more inclined to tank small 4bet/call if i think he will try blow us off our hand alot.
June 3, 2012
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Thanks for the replies,
So I ended up flatting, and river was of course an Ace. And I checked , he bet 11,100 and I folded. I put him on AK and my plan was to call any non A, K, or diamond on the river. So was that a mistake of just calling the turn and I should have just shoved? Which I think he would have probably called with AKdd anyways, but I guess that is the most +ev play?
And to the above, he wasnt playing stupid crazy, he was on the aggressive side, but usually would always have some piece of the board when he would raise or 3 bet. His turn raise confused me , and I didnt think he would do that with AK, thought for sure he would just flat with overs and flush draw. So that made me think he may have had a set, but I didnt see him 3 betting preflop with a middle pair, guess he could have did it with 10's but then his check flop also was wierd.
I personally like 4bet pre. Calling if he 5bet jams but dont think he will that often. More likely to flat and you can bet out flop. I say this because KK or AA is very small part of range and we are in good shape vs 88-JJ, suited broadways, any AQ+. I think with live play, we need to get more money in the pot pre and take control of the hand. People will pay us off so we are 4betting for value.
May 30, 2012
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Disagree hawk, i would bet 4betting AA KK and blockers that im not calling with like AJ A10.
dont think anyone is 5balling 88-JJ on you.
Much prefer to just let 88-JJ barrel on you in a bloated pot and value town themselves.
id prefer to 4bet AK over QQ because of the blocker value it has in affecting their 5bet freq
May 30, 2012
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I played in this tourney as well. I don't mind the flat of the 3bet, but I prob would have 4bet pre. If you have been TAG and he's been a bit Laggy, what the hell. How do you perceive this dude? Is he just getting cards? Is he a real playa? What do you think of his imagine? That's why question. Give us some details about you and him? Is he a 22 yr.old internet wiz. White, black, Asian. How bout you? It all matters………… I'm a 40 yr.old white guy who wears a baseball hat, Blue Sharks glasses w/ an Ipod………. Picture BigDog & Ttwist's, New Jersey cousin in your mind, lol.
As played up to flop, I also check………… What's he checking for? If (IF) he has a made hand I think he misses all kinds value with AA or KK or TT. I think he's scared w/ AK or AQ or 99, something like that…………….
I would do the same as you and lead the turn with the 8d. But I think i make it slightly more then 2300. There's 5700 chips in the pot. Then he bombs your 2300. I have NO CLUE what his 9k overbet is all about………. I think it screams AKdd AQdd (unless you had the Qd) in my mind. The wizards in this tourney aren't going to make it 9k in this spot in my mind. Even with this huge draw. But, if you thinks he's a compedent player, hmmmm. Just don't see anyone with a HUGE hand in this spot bombing it to 9k.
The “A” on the river sucks donkey balls. I think there's nothing to do but FOLD. He just 3bet you from 2.3k to 9k and now he makes it 11k. There was already 23.7k in the pot. You only have 25.8k left………You still have lots of chops…… 60bb's. Just fold and get him later.
May 30, 2012
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Do we really want/need to get 90bb+ in preflop when at best we should be a flip? He isnt going to be 5 betting jj there or even ak if he is competent. If he flats our 4 bet, we could still be behind if he decided to trap with aa/kk, but we are also playing a bloated pot oop with deep stacks. Are 88-1010, aq, and suited broadways in his 3 bet range in this spot? I don't think so for the most part, but if they are I'm not certain he calls a 4 bet with them, unless we make it super small. Whatever 4 bet sizing we use, we scream monster anyway because its not a spot we are 4 betting light.
May 30, 2012
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I think your spot on James. Nicely said……… If it's against any of the Borgata Regs or someone I deem solid, I just call for your reasons……Vs a clown, I prob 4bet.
Totally see what everyone is saying and cant disagree. I say 4bet just because I dont expect a 5bet in all honesty, so I am not worried about getting it in pre. If say a 5bet comes, which is a very small percentage of the time, I might just fold. I know we dont wanna 4bet/fold with such a big hand but just dont think we will have to.
May 30, 2012
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In this same tourney the day before (Day 1a) I busted w/ QQ's in a slightly diff situation, but I was the c/o w/QQ, vs an open raise, a flat, I 3bet squeeze and a very competent aggro wizard made a 4bet, other two plyrs fold and we got it in ……… Now I will say in my situation it was the first 20 minutes of the tourney which was a two day double play w/ UNLIMITED re-buys, knew there would be a big field. I had multiple bullets. This guy is very capible of doing it with AA – 86dd, I've seen it before…….. That's why I brought up what kind of person you perceive him/her. My guy had AA vs my QQ, lol. REBUY, lol.
I like everyones thoughts so far.
What do you guys think about the villians turn raise to 9k? Do you think he has a big hand or just wants to take it down right here?
June 3, 2012
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Thanks for everyone replies so far, I didn't deem him that solid or a regular, didn't have that many hands on it to be sure but he also didnt seem like a complete donk. His turn raise is what really got me, when he did it I was thinking set, but just couldn't fold my hand to his flop check. But then again I could have misread him and he could have been a complete donk.
Wish I had known you was playing P-Aire, we could have met up…I forget my table, think table 9 on Day 1b, didn't play 1a. I also played the 6 max tuesday.
May 30, 2012
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His turn ch-raise to 9k confuses me. If you're in that most with a set, why make it so much, you just chase out anyone with a hand likes yours. But oh well….. I normally play a bunch of tourneys at every Borgata Series and others in AC during the year, along with anything in the Phila area (Chester & Parx) even Delaware Park.
Hope to meet up with you soon. Next for me is the WPT @ Parx (Aug 1) then WPT @ Borgata in Sept. Hope to see you at one of those. GLGL grinding Sir.
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