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(3 votes) 
June 19, 2012
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Standard or Mistake?
A young guy next to me was raising quite a bit, maybe 2 to 4 times per orbit and had between 150k and 200k in chips. He 3 bet more than anyone else at the table as well. We are late in Day two. My image is probably closer to TAG but I have shown some hands (usually due to pot odds or in late position) such as JTs and KQ, pocket 3s so I am not just playing big pairs. The table is aggressive and most players appear decent.
February 20, 2015
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Tough way to go. Obviously you were coolered, so don’t second guess yourself.
Against more typical opponents I flat the 4-bet and reevaluate on the flop. In your case you have to wonder, even if a bad flop comes, are you still ahead of his range? This is a math question.
Shoving isn’t going to get a call from worse. I struggle with understanding the difference between shoving and “realizing equity.” Hoping someone can answer that here.
The argument against shoving is, if you flat the queens and give up on the flop if the flop is bad, you still have 28 bigs. This is similar to a hand I posted the other day, in which I could have had a stack that size if I had given up. It’s OK to be bluffed, especially in a tournament with 2-hour levels.
The argument for shoving is that you have to take higher variance plays when you’re against people better than you.
All in all, I would have done the same as you, but what I would have wanted to do was flat the 4-bet and reevaluate on the flop. I just know it would have been hard for me to do so.
An addendum: These laggy players sometimes play differently pre- and post-flop. In fact, the reason some are so aggressive pre is because the equity they give up is returned and then some post-flop. Others have no post-flop game at all and rely on this pre-flop aggression to be successful, but they haven’t fine-tuned their post-flop game because the situation comes up less often. When observing someone, it helps to keep track of whether they’re consistently aggressive or just in certain situations. It’s hard to do that sometimes because your sample size is so small.
Nice run in any case to make it this far. Good luck next year.
June 19, 2012
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Thanks. The flop was low so we probably get it all in on the flop.
August 20, 2015
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Sorry to hear you got coolered like this. That sucks.
I’d really like to hear someone else’s opinion on this as to me it seems you’re 5 bet shoving 50 big blinds with QQ and I’m not sure (not that I don’t think so – I am literally not sure) about if this is a good play in these situations.
How many blinds is too many blinds to be going all in with anything but KK or AA? At what point is calling a massive BB all in pre with even KK not profitable?
What’s the threshold at which you’re always happy to be getting it all in pre, even if super deep?
I play some smallish live games that start very deep but ramp up super quickly – I see people putting 200+ BBs all in pre with JJ and insta called by AK in the early levels, and it looks crazy but I don’t want to be missing some +EV spots in these.
June 19, 2012
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This is an interesting point which I am curious to hear about. At the beginning of the tourney, when we had 300+ big blinds and due to the cost, I am never getting it in even with KK preflop. To clarify, since I put in 13k and had about 67k left, had about 42 BBs which is still very workable. Since I did not know he had Aces for sure, I did not want to take a really long time to act in hopes that he would lay down AK or KK and wanted to rep AA. That plan failed unfortunately since he had AA.
I am still wondering although not as much as yesterday whether folding may be the best play; I had said to a friend the goal was to protect the stack. I am weighing that against needing a lot more chips to keep me in the game.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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You all should really watch my “Getting Off on the Right Foot” series.
January 20, 2014
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Thanks for the post and congrats on making past about half the field in the main event! On to the hand. I think your 3bet size was the start of it, making the rest of the hand hard to play. You 3bet almost 4x his raise. When you’re in position like this, I think a 3bet to like 2.2 – 2.5 would be good. You could make it something like 7,500 – 9,000. This would accomplish the same things: getting heads up against the raiser (ensuring that you have position for the rest of the hand); and by making it smaller, his 4bet will likely be smaller if he decides to reraise.
Another thing I’m wondering is have you seen him 4bet yet? If not, this is a big tell. You could always flat the 4bet and take a flop. That’s probably what I would have done here. Another thing, I’ve also made the mistake of acting quickly because I didn’t want my opponent to know what I had. That almost never helps you, and it almost always helps your opponents. Take as much time as you need, and think it through. They really don’t truly know what you have anyway until you show them your cards 
May 1, 2016
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Let’s look at numbers.
We’ll ignore whether the 3bet size was good or not because the main decision in this hand is what to do facing the 4bet. So, facing the 4bet…
Pot: 52,200 (35k from him, 13k from you, 4,200 from blinds + antes at a 9 handed table).
Facing the 4bet, you can a) fold, b) call 22k, leaving 45k behind and a SPR of less than 2/3, or c) shove for 67k. IMO you can’t fold here without the most solid read on your opponent. You have to be absolutely 150% sure than he ONLY has AA and KK here, and never even AKs. As soon as you even put AKs into his range, your equity jumps from 18% to over 27%. If you add in just one more hand, AKo, you jump to a whopping 40%. So, that should put folding out of the question.
Calling off 1/3 of your stack preflop doesn’t make sense to me here. If you are going to let it go if you don’t hit a set, you’re set mining, and clearly not getting the right price. If you’re going to call off when all undercards hit, then you might as well shove preflop because AA and KK aren’t folding on the J high boards after you’ve put in so much money. If you’re going to fold when an A or a K hits anyways, you’re essentially set mining again and, alas, not getting anywhere near the right price. Calling is not good.
Folding is not good, and calling is not good. Shoving is good. Once you shove, you make him put in only 45k to win 120k, so yeah, you’re getting called with whatever he 4bet with. The good news is, like I mentioned above, if you even throw in ONLY AKs into his range, this becomes a profitable play. Once you add in AKo you are up to a 39% share of equity, and if you really want to make his range wider than KK+, AKs/o (which I think it is), we can make it JJ+, AQs, AKo and you are now almost 50/50, at 48% equity.
You have to play some gambles to win. This is a great spot that you have. His range actually does include what I said above I believe, and given that you said he has 3bet quite a bit, it wouldnt surprise me to see him 4betting a late position 3bet with a range wider than that, as well as some bluffs. It doesn’t take much more than 10 10 and AQo to make a big favorite, 55%. And, when you think about the odds on the shove, you’re risking 45k to win significantly more than this.
Shove, be happy about it, and on to the next one!
TPE Pro
August 25, 2012
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Flatting the 4-bet is absolutely not an option here, so let’s eliminate that altogether. There should be virtually no situation where you’re willing to put in 35k of an 80k stack just to see a flop unless you’re trying to trap a really bad opponent with AA.
I think your 3-bet sizing is a little too big, but it really depends on positions – if you’re OOP then I can see 13k not being too bad, but if he’s in, say, middle position, and you’re on the BTN, your sizing needs to be closer to 9k here than 13k. 13k makes it harder for you to bluff effectively since you’re risking more chips, and harder for him to give action when you do have a strong hand.
Once he 4-bets, you’re in a tough spot – once again, positions are relevant so it would be nice to know them. His sizing is pretty poor – he makes it obvious he’s never even thinking about folding to you. Problem is, he could still make it that sizing with AK, so it’s hard for us to fold. The fact that he’s probably not doing this with JJ makes it hard to see this being a super profitable spot, but it’s also not really a spot we can make a hero-fold without a very solid read.
As an aside, do make sure you include positions every time you post a hand. This hand is totally different if he’s UTG and you’re UTG+1 versus if he’s the BTN and you’re the SB.
June 3, 2012
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Grunching here… Bored on my flight lol
Am I missing something or do we not have positions? I’m assuming the villain is on our right since we’re 3betting (unless he’s UTG and we’re BB is the only way this works if he’s on our left).
Lets start with the initial open, With the caveat that I play a bit different than most other MTT guys. I think we actually have a decision between 3b and calling. Some things we’d wanna know about villain (and the rest of the table): how does villain react to 3bets? Is he inclined to see a flop or 4bet? Are there any short stacks behind us? If so are they waiting for a hand or do they recognize good squeeze spots?
Unless this is a BTN vs SB spot, I think the 3bet here is too large, I’d go with something closer to 9k. Out of position in probably going 11-12k and just getting coolered here given your read.
The sizing we did use here looks like we want to get all the money in, so unless this guy has a tendency to 4bet and get it in light, I’d be inclined to believe him when he makes it 35k, as its 100% committing with your stack. You can’t beat yourself up too bad getting it in with QQ but I personally think it’s a fold as played. A subset of good LAG players tend to give up to resistance without the goods, and then just have it when all the money goes in and get people to get it in too light.
Last thing I’d like to address as I write this book lol is your remark about having to take higher variance spots against tough players. While it’s certainly true, in this particular tournament remember you get a new table tomorrow, and the structure is super slow. This scenario happened to me on day 4 where I went from a chip leader to getting steadily picked apart by tough LAGs and eventually decided I’m nitting up and I won’t have to deal with these guys tomorrow. People steadily bust throughout the tournament so don’t feel you’re under pressure to make moves until you’re approaching the end.
February 5, 2015
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“Getting off on the right foot”… The new Foucault series, is shaping up to be the most helpful of Andrew’s series I have studied. I was trying to tackle advanced theory when my foundation in the basics was shaky at best.
BTW, and not to derail the thread, but I have been listening to your podcasts SIGABA…(may I call you Steve?)…great stuff!
May 30, 2012
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Lots of really good comments. This is simply a cooler or cold deck. I do think (like others have said) your 3bet was a bit much. Why not make it 8200 or 8800. Look, you are still going to get 4bet by the aggro dude. Now, instead of 35k, he prob bets 22-24k. I think you can still have a chance of not going broke if you did the Daniel and played a bit of smaller ball here.
Even though this ended up being QQ v AA……….. I like the insight from everyone.
TPE Management
April 6, 2010
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Julius187 said
Grunching here… Bored on my flight lol…
Great post!! Thanks for the insight and thanks for the sweat this summer!
January 20, 2014
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Riceman: BTW, and not to derail the thread, but I have been listening to your podcasts SIGABA…(may I call you Steve?)…great stuff!
Thank you Mark! Glad you like it! I can make a fool of myself in the forums and on the air as well. My ignorance knows no bounds.
February 5, 2015
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No brother…My ignorance and irrelevancies knows no bounds! You sound like a genius to me… I listen to you now when I do my (man-boob reduction) exercises! (I have developed exquisite man boobs since I turned 40! I actually walked past a mirror in my house the other night…and I did a double take! I saw out of the corner of my eye a human form with excellent boobs! Imagine my heart ache when I realised it was my own reflection I had been instinctively turned on by!). I realised…this needs to stop…NOW!
February 20, 2015
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I’d say something insulting about the appearance of British women, but actually I find the Spice Girls quite attractive.
February 5, 2015
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Who needs attractive women when one has moobs and a mirror?
Edit: 1) the moobs are not that bad I am only having fun…but I am in damage limitation mode. Prevention is better than cure etc.
2) sorry PAM I didn’t mean to derail your thread into a discussion about my (world beating) moobs!
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