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TPE Management
March 17, 2010
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Ok this was the most interesting spot of the day at the Borgata Deepstacks $400 and I'm wondering what you guys would do here. Sorry for the tl;dr reads/table image but I think they are important.
We're at 500/1000 and I'm at ~85k. I'm one of the larger stacks at the table covered by what must be the TCL who just sat to my right with 200k and a guy across from me who is wearing a PokerXFactor hoodie with ~100k.
PXF guy got his chips 2 hands ago after a 3 bet pot PF (I don't recall who did the 3 betting) he c-bets 15k and this older guy shoves 40k on a 9 high flop. PXF guy has AA and calls and busts the guy who has 92o (I'm not joking…wtf). He's been at my table for about 3 hours and has played solid. He's been very active pre opening mostly from MP (into my blinds a few times). I 3 bet him when he opened UTG+1 and he folded about 2 orbits ago.
My image has been pretty active as well. I 3 barrel bluffed and was called about 2 hours ago losing half my stack. I quickly recovered it + more when I got involved in two AIs. I shoved over someone with AK and got called by QQ and spiked, and then I called a TT AI with AK and spiked as well. There was a little table talk about how my image got that shove and I had to call with AK so it's fair to say they think I'm aggro.
That was a while ago though. For the last 2 levels or so I've been playing small ball. Ok on to the hand:
500/1000 100 ante. Hero on button with QQ ~85k, Villain has ~100k.
PXF guy opens from UTG+1 to 2600. He was opening from EP frequently. This was the same position that I 3 bet him 3 orbits ago with air and he folded.
I raise to 7k.
He quickly makes it 21k.
Hero?
I find this hand to be right on the margins of everything. I feel like he is very capable and deep enough to 4 bet me light here given the fact that this situation came up 2 orbits ago. I don't like folding because of this history. Calling seems gross because I hate folding post flop putting this much in pre (although this may be a leak) + he will have the initiative post making everything very tough for me, especially if an A or K flop. Shoving seems huge but maybe he folds AK here?
I feel like shoving is the best option but after analyzing my play lately I have noticed I take too high variance lines frequently. Would that be the case here? Thoughts?
flat the initial raise. if we can't expect him to flat the 3bet with worse a good amount then we're just asking to play a giant pot with at best a very marginal edge at a table where there have to be softer spots.
as played, i really don't know. i don't really expect him to get ~85BB in PF with JJ or TT and am really not sure he's 4betting those hands to begin with. i really don't know what's best here with so little history and knowledge of villains 3b/4b tendencies which is part of why i'd flat to begin with.
also, what are the stack sizes in the blinds? cause another advantage of flatting is that you can induce squeezes from behind.
June 25, 2010
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I don't know a lot about live so I can't really add much to this, but If you did this before, the second time looks super strong imo. So his 4-bet to me looks so strong, especially when he 3xs? I may have to find a fold here considering the history. If he is really good and gives you a lot of credit then he may know you know it looks strong and 4-ball light here, but he is wearing a poker x-factor hoodie, not a TPE hoodie lets be serious. I am not a fan of calling, so I guess I puke in my head and fold. Hagbard is right about what we are expecting when we 3-bet here though, because if we ask ourselves before we 3-bet what we will do if he four bets and come up with a fold, and he isn't flatting worse hands oop, then it's probably better to just flat. This is a really hard spot though, I am sorry that they just didn't give him kings and you aces here. Oh well…..you can only hope.
it's tuff because you can level yourself into thinking villan feels because ur on btn my 3bet could be light.
Hagbards's idea of flatting the 2600 is intersting not only for the reasons he stated but it disguises your hand as well. Im not sure of the best way to proceed as played. Me being me I would probably shove.
Flat pre flop comes all unders. Villian leads 40 to 60 % of pot. What now?
I mean if we can't or don't want to get it all in pre. The same logic applies after flop too correct?
June 25, 2010
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right but we are keeping more air hands in by flatting then by raising, so we can more comfortably call flop then we can 5-bet shove because we are further ahead of his raise/c-betting range then we are his super polarized 4-betting range. The only thing I don't like about flatting is when we showdown queens after flatting pre, we can't 3-bet light much because we are basically announcing our 3-betting value range is KK+ lol, and if we even only 3-bet light a little it will still be pretty exploitable and good players will just 4-bet/fold us to death making us open our range up and sometimes 5-bet a little light. It's a tricky spot, but if you thought he was going to stick in the 4-bet before you 3-bet, then you should probably just get it in here. Otherwise, if you think your 3-bet looks really strong and he will fold oop any of the hands you dominate, then just flat and keep the dominated hands/ air in and play a pot in position imo.
July 3, 2010
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I really don't like the idea of shoving 85 bb pre with QQ against this person opening from this spot. I don't even consider it an option.
That means a 3 bet also isn't really a viable option since in this scenario you will be 3-bet/folding and QQ is far too strong to turn into a bluff hand.
Just flat the raise pre-flop and use your post-flop reading skills to play the pot in position. Plus your hand strength is very well disguised.
With past history, I really don't think he's that strong…the 3x seems weaker to me. Do you think he 3x's your 3bet w AA or KK here? I don't.
I understand and agree with most people saying to flat the original raise but what does our hero do now as played, facing a 21k 4bet?
The three options I see as played are:
1) flat the 4bet for ~25% of your stack. (can't be good)
2) 5bet shove (possibly over-agg/spewy)
3) Fold to his 4 bet (seems pretty weak/tight)
I think I shove…
BTW, PFX guys suck!
i think you're way over thinking the effect of showing down QQ in this spot. the table isn't going to suddenly start skull-****ing you anytime you decide to 3bet because we flatted QQ once.
and even if they do, who cares? they'd be the ones making the mistake. to see us showdown QQ here and deduce that our value 3bet range is KK+ is just wrong and if they do that then all the better for us. the fact is that we're 3betting this guys EP open and it's just not the greatest spot to 3bet. it doesnt mean that we can't be lighter/have a wider value range in other spots.
as for what to do as played, i really don't know. i kind of hesitate to answer because i just wouldn't 3bet here so its kind of hard to say. see, i don't think that this deep in a live setting many decent players are looking to get into 3b/4b/5b wars with other good players, and if they are that type i'd imagine you'd be able to tell pretty quickly. and if we had 99-JJ here certainly we'd be flatting, so we're talking about going to war with near the bottom of our value range, which is something that i'm not wild about doing in a soft live tournament against one of the players at the table who has at least some clue and has us covered.
i mean, tbqh, when RFB first asked me to look at this hand my first thoughts were to not 3bet, and as played i'd probably fold and not tell anybody about it.
Hagbard Celine said:
i think you're way over thinking the effect of showing down QQ in this spot. the table isn't going to suddenly start skull-****ing you anytime you decide to 3bet because we flatted QQ once.
and even if they do, who cares? they'd be the ones making the mistake. to see us showdown QQ here and deduce that our value 3bet range is KK+ is just wrong and if they do that then all the better for us. the fact is that we're 3betting this guys EP open and it's just not the greatest spot to 3bet. it doesnt mean that we can't be lighter/have a wider value range in other spots.
(Don't know how I messed up the quote thing..swet1 said)
Was this in response to my post HC? I'm not sure I get what you're saying here. As I said I do agree a better line would be to flat pre, and play the hand out but since it is such a tough spot after the 3bet and opposing 4 bet, I wanted to know what most players are thinking once there.
TPE Management
April 6, 2010
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loving the discussion on this hand!
TPE Management
March 17, 2010
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Killingbird said:
loving the discussion on this hand!
Me too. I have some sort of mindset where the first thing that came to my mind was 3bet/5bet because of image/history considerations but I think I give too much value to that and not enough to the value of my stack and how deep we are. I guess it also comes from playing online shallower stacks. With 40bbs I should be fist pumping shoving (i think) but I need to adjust better to deeper stacks live.
That's why I find it so interesting. I mean it's hard to fold QQ given history but it's super hard to spew away your tourney (with deep stack) in such a tough spot.
It is often easy to see a better play after the fact. But when you make a less than optimal play on one street, you can't change that, so I think it can be a benefit to determine your best option from that point forward, since we all face these spots eventually.
So if folding is the best option to the four bet at 85bb's, at what stack size would it be ok to get it allin?
July 3, 2010
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If anything, once you show down QQ after flatting pre the table is going to be a bit nervous any time you flat since you've shown that you will do it as a trap on top of flatting with your weaker/speculative hands.
It also means you can probably make a couple light 3-bets at some point over the next couple orbits and they'll get respect.
June 25, 2010
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but you don't want to be flatting a lot anyway, you want to be mostly 3-betting pre, and when the blinds increase we will have probably close to 50bb, which is a good time to turn up the agression. It's not about wether your 3-bets get respect, which if you 3-bet more than once the next two orbits any good player will pick up on the fact your range is super polarized, but how profitable it becomes to 4-bet fold you. You can't flat with your “range” bluffs or AA and KK so you either jam, and they have an easy laydown, or you fold your air to the 4-bets. It's impossible to get value unless you cooler someone AA to KK. I know it makes sense to say, “oh he flatted QQ so he should only be 3-betting AA and KK so I guess I have to fold to this 3-ball” as a reason that flatting allows you to 3-bet light more, but even mediocre players understand that your chances of getting AA or KK are smaller than 1/100 so if you 3-bet 3 times in 2 orbits, but flat queens pre….I feel like even the bad players at the table will relaize what's up and at least start flatting your 3-bets. It's just so easily exploitable if someone will only 3-bet for value with AA and KK, flat the rest of the very strong handsTT+ AK, AQs, and 3-bet their air, because 4-bet folding just offers such a great return in those spots, as there are way more air combos, and you can fold to every 5-bet comfortably. This spot is really hard though because of history. I honestly think he folds jacks here because you did this once before, making this look pretty strong. So basically his range is AA, KK, and AK and maybe some other random bluffs if he is getting out of line. Calling keeps his bluffs in if he spew jams all flops, but overs are flopping half the time making it a hard call. Basically what I am saying is if you know he jams flop 100% of the time if you flat with that range of AA, KK, AK and a few light 4-bets, then calling the 4-bet and calling the flop is obviously better then shoving. But in reality if JJ happens to be his range, he may get it in pre but fold lots of flops so it's hard justify calling to call flop unless he jams it like 80%+. With the past history though, I think you can take out a lot of air type hands, making you unable to 5-bet all in if he 4-bets because you are crushed by his range, and reluctantly flat pre.
June 25, 2010
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hagbard I didn't read your post before i wrote the last one, that was just in response to Fkcoolers saying that flatting QQ pre allows us to light 3-bet more. Sorry for beating to death the flatting QQ thinkg, and I agree with you that it becomes position and spot specific when you show down hands. I agree with you and retract my point that flatting QQ in this spot doesn't allow us to 3-bet light profitably. I just see people only 3-bet AA and KK with the intention of shoving a lot in a general sense, an I believe it's a leak. You're right in saying that this specific spot warrents a flat and just because we do it once doesn't mean that hands like QQ, JJ, TT and so on are not in our three bet value range in other spots. I made the mistake of generalizing the spot, when it was an extremely unquie situation that deserves to be looked at as such. Thanks for setting me straight haha
TPE Management
March 17, 2010
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jshilling09 said:
when the blinds increase we will have probably close to 50bb,
fwiw next levels were 600/1200 and if i fold i have ~78k or 65bbs.
June 25, 2010
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RonFezBuddy said:
jshilling09 said:
when the blinds increase we will have probably close to 50bb,
fwiw next levels were 600/1200 and if i fold i have ~78k or 65bbs.
lol, so it's not a $12 180 man? Then I am completely lost and no one shold listen to me.
@Funnnuraba-
yeah np bruh, and FWIW i think it's awesome that you're thinking deeply about what you want your ranges to be in certain spots and trying to play unexploitably. thing is, though, that often in MTTs your best approach is an exploitable one, and it doesn't matter because no one is exploiting you.
@swet-
it's hard to say at what stack size i just get this in. certainly at ~40-50BB i'd look to just 3b/call. but still, it really depends more on what i think villain will do. i have a better time swallowing that he'll 4bet 99-JJ with 40BB than with 85BB. frankly, i don't think TT or JJ are in his 4bet range with 85BB eff. which is why i think all the talk of him getting it in here PF with TT/JJ is kind of immaterial.
Let me get this right. Villian raises EP, u 3b w/ QQ on BTN (just like last time). Villian now 4b quickly!
This line seems like air or mayb 99/TT/JJ or hands like AJ/AQ/KQs. I'd just call his 4b and let him hang himself. He's going to make a cbet on flop & turn so hopefully we'll get our stacks in then. Just my opinion.
July 3, 2010
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I'm with Hagbard. If he's part of PXF and is a competent member who's been there for a bit he should not be 4 betting TT and JJ here since he turns them into bluff hands versus a 5 bet. No way is TT or JJ getting into a 170 bb pot AIPF. None.
Live poker plays so much nittier than online and I feel comfortable saying that TT and JJ wouldn't be felting it online, either.
And the fact he puts in the 4 bet so quickly kind of leans away from those middle strength hands anyway since he'd probably pause to think about whether or not to raise, fold, or call. I think this quick action indicates strength since he doesn't need to think about your range too much while putting in his own raise.
FkCoolers said:
I'm with Hagbard. If he's part of PXF and is a competent member who's been there for a bit he should not be 4 betting TT and JJ here since he turns them into bluff hands versus a 5 bet. No way is TT or JJ getting into a 170 bb pot AIPF. None.
I mean, it's completely dependent on reads, but if he reads you as an aggressive online guy he could easily still be 4-betting TT or JJ.
TPE Management
March 17, 2010
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Wein said:
FkCoolers said:
I'm with Hagbard. If he's part of PXF and is a competent member who's been there for a bit he should not be 4 betting TT and JJ here since he turns them into bluff hands versus a 5 bet. No way is TT or JJ getting into a 170 bb pot AIPF. None.
I mean, it's completely dependent on reads, but if he reads you as an aggressive online guy he could easily still be 4-betting TT or JJ.
He reads me as aggressive but not online as I haven't said a word about online poker or anything like ranges, exploitable, 3 betting, etc. Trying to hide the fact that I play online against those guys since I'm in my mid-30s and you'd probably take me for a live nit at first glance.
Ok results time?
July 3, 2010
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Wein said:
FkCoolers said:
I'm with Hagbard. If he's part of PXF and is a competent member who's been there for a bit he should not be 4 betting TT and JJ here since he turns them into bluff hands versus a 5 bet. No way is TT or JJ getting into a 170 bb pot AIPF. None.
I mean, it's completely dependent on reads, but if he reads you as an aggressive online guy he could easily still be 4-betting TT or JJ.
Yeah… and table image is weird. Some people form an opinion and stick with it forever. Others look at gameflow.
If RFB has been playing small ball and scaled back on the aggression for the past 2 levels I'm more inclined to give this PXF'er additional hand strength than if they were getting tangled up in the middle of when RFB was more actively 3 betting.
Results please!
TPE Management
March 17, 2010
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Alright results time. I did shove and he had AA. More RFB mistakes to make the TPE community better poker players! 🙂
I used to 3bet everytime in this spot until TPE taught me better. First, given the history if you 3bet you are expecting a fold and are getting no value. Second, I think his 4bet screams strength here. I feel if you flat and possibly 3bet post flop and he 4bets you then, you have much more information. Great hand to discuss.
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