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June 2, 2013
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Hello!!
I didn´t like my play here… QQ oop, raise.. 3bet and a call, i am oop against all of the players involved, didn´t want to 3bet and play a bigger pot oop, get a good flop I guess, decided on the flop, when BTN folded, that I was going to check and call twice, but not all in since was a 3bet pot.
4bet pre flop is any good here? I think by doing that I only isolate myself against a better range, KK+AK, Ak is a flip, but all the rest will fold.
If BTN had called the cbet OTF i probably call one, and let it to if i don´t improve.
OTT i check, V cbet again, the 2 is a blank, don´t put V on 22. I was unsure here, because i was going to call turn, and fold river if V bets again, not sure if this is the best line, should I fold turn, or call turn and river (river not Ace or King)?
I give a moment OTR to think about shoving, but didn´t like it. I was going for a check fold.
Didn´t have much of a plan for this hand, was confused on what to do.
Pacific, $4.50 Buy-in (25/50 blinds) No Limit Hold’em Tournament, 9 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager – The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.
SB: 5,870 (117.4 bb)
Hero (BB): 5,060 (101.2 bb)
UTG+1: 10,217 (204.3 bb)
UTG+2: 4,673 (93.5 bb)
MP1: 5,460 (109.2 bb)
MP2: 5,614 (112.3 bb)
MP3: 4,260 (85.2 bb)
CO: 4,360 (87.2 bb)
BTN: 8,167 (163.3 bb)
Preflop: Hero is BB with Q
Q
2 folds, MP1 raises to 100, MP2 folds, MP3 raises to 300, CO folds, BTN calls 300, SB folds, Hero calls 250, MP1 folds
Flop: (1,025) 6 9 7
(3 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets 600, BTN folds, Hero calls 600
Turn: (2,225) 2
(2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets 1,020, Hero calls 1,020
River: (4,265) 5 (2 players)
Hero ?
May 19, 2016
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What was our read on V?
Seems to me the flop hit his range, on the other hand to him it also hit our range:
- early in the tournament, low blinds
- V range about: 45%
- BTN range about the same as V: 45%
- Pre flop equity: hero: 58% V: 21% BTN:20%
- Flop V gains control of position
- Equity on flop: Hero: 69% V:30%
- to make a long story short on Equity, Hero has the best equity throughout hand and goes to >70%.
on the Flop Hero checks, Why? The board is a rainbow, and we have over cards to the board, all good for us
A nice 3-bet or shove would be good here. (prefer a 3 bet, or maybe a 4-bet since V raise Pre)
Things good for Hero:
- Pre-flop a raise with a re-raise (got people out that may have suck out on us with an A8 or 8xs)
- Even though we are out of position we have a very strong hand
- As the BB our range is as wide or wider than V, V knows this
- Hero has a bigger chip stack than V
- No flush draws, no over-cards
- Only AA, KK, 3/4, or 8x beats us by river
- All this adds up to a sizable bet on the flop, which may take it down right there, maybe not.
We’ll lose from time to time, that does happen
Once again if anybody sees anything wrong with my reasoning please speak up so we can all benefit.
Regards,
December 30, 2015
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Pre-flop, as soon as the 3-bet gets a flat-call (flat looks like ATs-AQo, KQs or 44-TT), I 4-bet to ~825. If we get called I’m discounting AA and KK and reducing the flatter to set-mining. The rest are in a pretty tight range of pocket pairs + A and K heavy, so any overs and I’m just set mining with my QQ. Any other flop and I’m holding the betting lead with an eye out for sets.
Since there are no stacks at risk (everyone is deep) I think I’m folding to a 5-bet. I play at these stakes and I never see a 5-bet bluff so I’m thinking it is AK, AA or KK. I suppose we can call and see the flop, and if no overs, float once and reevaluate, but that could be quite expensive. Of course we could hit a Q against KK or AA and score ~130BB…
June 2, 2013
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JupiterRocks said
What was our read on V?Seems to me the flop hit his range, on the other hand to him it also hit our range:
- V range about: 45%
- BTN range about the same as V: 45%
…
No reads on V.
You put V on a 45% range to 3bet pre flop with no antes? MP3 vs MP1? I have put 3bet V on a TT+, AJs+, AQo+, sometimes 99 and KQs.
JupiterRocks said
…on the Flop Hero checks, Why? The board is a rainbow, and we have over cards to the board, all good for us
…
I fell if I check to V he can put more money into the pot with worst hands than mine, when I lead out I will get much more action from better hands, and I will be in awkward situation if I get reraised. So I prefer to check and call.
JupiterRocks said
…A nice 3-bet or shove would be good here. (prefer a 3 bet, or maybe a 4-bet since V raise Pre)Things good for Hero:
- Pre-flop a raise with a re-raise (got people out that may have suck out on us with an A8 or 8xs)…
I didn´t get this part, you mean a 4bet squeeze pre flop? or check raise flop?
June 2, 2013
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MovieFX said
Pre-flop, as soon as the 3-bet gets a flat-call (flat looks like ATs-AQo, KQs or 44-TT), I 4-bet to ~825. If we get called I’m discounting AA and KK and reducing the flatter to set-mining. The rest are in a pretty tight range of pocket pairs + A and K heavy, so any overs and I’m just set mining with my QQ. Any other flop and I’m holding the betting lead with an eye out for sets.Since there are no stacks at risk (everyone is deep) I think I’m folding to a 5-bet. I play at these stakes and I never see a 5-bet bluff so I’m thinking it is AK, AA or KK. I suppose we can call and see the flop, and if no overs, float once and reevaluate, but that could be quite expensive. Of course we could hit a Q against KK or AA and score ~130BB…
I think will be more difficult to play when hero 4bets oop with this ranges you gave. maybe i misunderstood you.
If V 5 bets, this will be a fold.
If V calls, you gave V a range of “reducing the flatter to set-mining. The rest are in a pretty tight range of pocket pairs + A and K heavy” by that you don´t cbet any Ace or King OTF? right? and what do you do if you get a flop like 7TJ? rainbown or suited… 48T… The pot will be a little bit over 2k, assuming only one call, and hero will have ~4200, 2 PSB. MP3 about 3400, others have more than hero.
On a board like that, playing with the 4bet, I assume a check raise all in?
I think will be really hard to play this oop with a 4bet, not sure if TT or JJ will give more value to hero after 4betting pre.
May 19, 2016
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Woo Hoo finally get feed back! Second time first by you, Thank you Almofadinhas!
I don’t have people to talk to about poker till now, so I may say things that make people say: huh. This is the reason I joined this site, and the reason I comment on posts in hopes somebody will point out my leaks and short comings so I can become a better player….My goal!
I have one friend that’s good enough to talk to but our schedules clash and he’s a cash game more than tournament player.
On to the subject!
Putting the 2 V’s on 45% was pre-flop, which is my default for unknowns in those positions. I didn’t feel the persons betting was being over zealous, so didn’t put anybody on AA, KK and obviously not QQ@
Believe MP1 that folded pre-flop was kicking himself in butt for folding by the river, don’t know why just do.
On flop I put MP3 with his 2/3 pot bet on 77+, Axs poss. A7s,A9s,A6s, 98s,J9s,K9s, K9o, however unlikely,(because of pre-flop action by this player) but not out of the realm 67s, 45s, 95s, 96s, 97s, lots of draws, lots of 2nd best
Pre-flop with such a strong hand I believe a re-raise squeeze is in order because:
- its early in tournament lots o fish
- want to take pot down so as not to be sucked out on, or single out a player
- if re-raised after our re-raise we can fold, still have plenty of chips to play and have some info on V, but not a lot because we folded.
the Pre-flop raise “good for V and us” even though we didn’t make the raise it got people out that could have sucked out on us. However I meant the squeeze play. A squeeze would have gotten us heads up, even though we didn’t know that at the time but is the most common occurrence. I have made this play with QQ in similar situations many times. Most offen we take the pot PRE, if not a Nice 2/3 on flop takes down the pot, other times fishy V goes to showdown, All these instances make up for the few times I’m beat, worth it.
Now if we do a squeeze and V shoves, time to reconsider
If we Bet the Flop after a squeeze and get raised… time to reconsider, but not as much as if he shoves after squeeze on Pre.
Btn protected Position till flop and then caved when pressure was applied. (good info)
December 30, 2015
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I see what you mean but I think a 4-bet makes it easier to play because it narrows ranges. The rest I tried to condense a bunch of possibilities in to just a few words. Scenarios I see are, we 4-bet and….
recap: “MP1 raises to 100…MP3 raises to 300…BTN calls 300…Hero [BB] calls 250…MP1 Folds“
1. MP1/MP3 5-bets…. I fold. If V 5-bets with AK, putting 100BB in play, so early, then I think I am ok giving up rather than flipping considering there are also a lot of KK and AA in V’s range as well.
2. MP1/MP3/BTN flats – I doubt we get all three flatting, but regardless, if MP1 flats and no one 5-bets then I feel we are ahead going to the flop. In my original post I mention reducing ranges to AK/AQ and lower pockets set-mining. but more specifically I think the first caller is likely to be more like ~TT-JJ, AQ+ and additional flatters have more lower pairs and less AQ.
I think there is still enough room in the stack sizes to possibly detect a set, but it depends on the number of callers and how the flop action goes. On this flop, and now that we have the betting lead and a lower SPR, if V donk bets or c/r then I can’t see doing anything other then getting it all in. It is easier for V to have 88, TT or JJ than a set (statistically) and with a 4-bet there are far less suited connector type hands to hit 2-pair, right?…
…and that is kinda my point. As played there are far more hands that hit the flop than would in a 4-bet pot. 97s, 8Ts, 9Ts, 67s, maybe 66, 77 and perhaps even 99 may fold to the 4-bet PF. Some small amount of KK may still be in V’s range but almost no AA unless I have a read on a player as exceptionally passive.
…Sounds reasonable?
May 19, 2016
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I believe we have the same idea and have different ways to go about it. Which neither is wrong in my opinion.
going to have to finish when I get home, closing time, and it’s been a busy day. Dang customers, oh….I mean glad to have them come in….dang customers.
May 19, 2016
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at home, good to be your own boss, not really but owner of shop I work at is very supportive. So supportive he pitched in 1/3 of a buy in once, as well as my coworker so I could play in a tournament. Great guys!
As I was saying before that last big sale, wait a minute pizza’s done. Dang Pizza.
Anyway….wait a minute need a beer, dang beer.
Okay I’m set.
Are you saying a 4 bet pre-flop or post flop?
I believe you’re saying pre,
You said:
1. MP1/MP3 5-bets…. I fold. If V 5-bets with AK, putting 100BB in play, so early, then I think I am ok giving up rather than flipping considering there are also a lot of KK and AA in V’s range as well.
I’m a live player, but it seems that in a $4.50 tournament early in a game wouldn’t it be better to flip? I don’t play in any games in my local casino except for a $120 buy in(re), 10K GTD on Fridays at noon. Then I only play once every other month as I save my money for the WSOP at the Palm Beach Kennel club at the beginning of the year, and SHRPO in Hollywood Seminole Hard Rock. In the $120 I’ll chose to do a flip with QQ in the beginning. But I have to know the player and be sure it’s a flip before I call. Admittedly I do poorly in any tournament under 1000 in the field, and the $120 only brings in about 220 during season.
If that is wrong, and is a leak let me know so I can stop doing fishy things.
Isn’t MP3 bet on Pre-flop considered a 3 bet to MP1’s 2 bet? So to 4 bet MP3’s 3 bet would it not be 1200?
Or am I misunderstanding the whole thing?
I thoroughly agree with what you said in #2 in your re-post. If everybody flats more than likely your ahead of everybody’s hand range.
You said:
I think there is still enough room in the stack sizes to possibly detect a set, but it depends on the number of callers and how the flop action goes. On this flop, and now that we have the betting lead and a lower SPR, if V donk bets or c/r then I can’t see doing anything other then getting it all in. It is easier for V to have 88, TT or JJ than a set (statistically) and with a 4-bet there are far less suited connector type hands to hit 2-pair, right?…
As far as detecting a set, depends on the player. These guys are unknown, I play my sets differently at different times and depends on the board coordination and all other players hand ranges that are in the hand.
Agreed on the later part of your statement as i said earlier:
however unlikely,(because of pre-flop action by this player) but not out of the realm 67s, 45s, 95s, 96s, 97s
I once had pocket A’s and 5 bet a 2 bet raise by a MP. it was mid tournament, The BB called, MP folded. The flop came out and i was not worried as the flop was A, 2, 4 and I 5 bet the Pre-flop. The BB was a known good player, He came out betting the flop and I shoved. This good player flipped over 3, 5 , the board didn’t pair I was bubble boy. later I found out it was his favorite hand.
Yes it sounds Reasonable, but not everybody is…reasonable!
It will be few that did what happened to me and we’ll win more in situations like this than loose.
Out of the same reasons cat’s die what happened?
Regards,
June 2, 2013
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JupiterRocks said
Woo Hoo finally get feed back! Second time first by you, Thank you Almofadinhas!I don’t have people to talk to about poker till now, so I may say things that make people say: huh. This is the reason I joined this site, and the reason I comment on posts in hopes somebody will point out my leaks and short comings so I can become a better player….My goal!
I have one friend that’s good enough to talk to but our schedules clash and he’s a cash game more than tournament player.
Sorry for the delay, I had problem with my computer .
I am learning as well, as long you want to improve forums are a great way to do so, also Andrew´s videos, really awsome!! I will have him to coach me eventually, I just need to move up stakes yet 
.
Cash game players are way better at pos flop analises then tournament players, you can discuss with your friend hands that are deep enough.
JupiterRocks said
…
Putting the 2 V’s on 45% was pre-flop, which is my default for unknowns in those positions. I didn’t feel the persons betting was being over zealous, so didn’t put anybody on AA, KK and obviously not QQ@
…
On flop I put MP3 with his 2/3 pot bet on 77+, Axs poss. A7s,A9s,A6s, 98s,J9s,K9s, K9o, however unlikely,(because of pre-flop action by this player) but not out of the realm 67s, 45s, 95s, 96s, 97s, lots of draws, lots of 2nd best
…
I still can´t see mp3 3betting 45% of his range, he should be a real maniac for that hehehe, I stick to “TT+, AJs+, AQo+, sometimes 99 and KQs”.
JupiterRocks said
… However I meant the squeeze play. A squeeze would have gotten us heads up, even though we didn’t know that at the time but is the most common occurrence.
I should have considered this at the time… but if 5bet i feel like I bluff with my pocket queens pre flop, and had do lay it down.
JupiterRocks said
…
I have made this play with QQ in similar situations many times. Most offen we take the pot PRE, if not a Nice 2/3 on flop takes down the pot, other times fishy V goes to showdown, All these instances make up for the few times I’m beat, worth it.
…
We should try to extract more value from weaker hands, if we put too many bets into the pot we only get action from better hands, and we don´t want that, we need weaker hands putting money into the pot, cause them we will win most of the time.
June 2, 2013
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MovieFX said
I see what you mean but I think a 4-bet makes it easier to play because it narrows ranges. …
I am affraid a 4bet here will look way too much strong, that we only get action from AA, KK and AK. Someone with JJ will probably not stacking off on a low board such the one I had, probably playing with set value mentality.
MovieFX said
…Scenarios I see are, we 4-bet and….recap: “MP1 raises to 100…MP3 raises to 300…BTN calls 300…Hero [BB] calls 250…MP1 Folds“
1. MP1/MP3 5-bets…. I fold. If V 5-bets with AK, putting 100BB in play, so early, then I think I am ok giving up rather than flipping considering there are also a lot of KK and AA in V’s range as well.
Problem here is with the dead money in the pot to fold. But I guess folding for a 5bet will be a way with less variance.
Well, there is 6 combos of AA, 6 combos of KK, 12 combos of AKo and 4 combos of AKs, (28 combos in total) 12 of this we will get AA or KK (6+6), and other 16 times we will have AKo or AKs… On equity calculator QQ is going to win 39.86%
MP1 raises to 100 (pot 250) …MP3 raises to 300 (pot 550) …BTN calls 300 (pot 850)… Hero [BB] 4bet 825 (pot 1625)
MP1 shove (or two fold and BTN shoves) +4960 (pot 6585) two fold, hero have to call 4235, to win a 10820 pot, for 39.14% equity to break even.
If MP1 fold, and MP3 shove +3960, BTN fold, hero have to call 3135, to win a 8720 pot, for 35.95% equity to break even, witch will be profitable.
If my math is right, I am confused right now lol.
MovieFX said
…
I think there is still enough room in the stack sizes to possibly detect a set, but it depends on the number of callers and how the flop action goes. On this flop, and now that we have the betting lead and a lower SPR, if V donk bets or c/r then I can’t see doing anything other then getting it all in. It is easier for V to have 88, TT or JJ than a set (statistically) and with a 4-bet there are far less suited connector type hands to hit 2-pair, right?……and that is kinda my point. As played there are far more hands that hit the flop than would in a 4-bet pot. 97s, 8Ts, 9Ts, 67s, maybe 66, 77 and perhaps even 99 may fold to the 4-bet PF. Some small amount of KK may still be in V’s range but almost no AA unless I have a read on a player as exceptionally passive.
…Sounds reasonable?
I think the 3bet already forces some of this hands out, but yeah, a 4bet will make a better job doing this. Not sure how many suited connectors or low pocket pairs people will call a 3bet, and then fold for a 4bet.
June 2, 2013
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JupiterRocks said
I’m a live player, but it seems that in a $4.50 tournament early in a game wouldn’t it be better to flip? I don’t play in any games in my local casino except for a $120 buy in(re), 10K GTD on Fridays at noon. Then I only play once every other month as I save my money for the WSOP at the Palm Beach Kennel club at the beginning of the year, and SHRPO in Hollywood Seminole Hard Rock. In the $120 I’ll chose to do a flip with QQ in the beginning. But I have to know the player and be sure it’s a flip before I call. Admittedly I do poorly in any tournament under 1000 in the field, and the $120 only brings in about 220 during season.If that is wrong, and is a leak let me know so I can stop doing fishy things.
I guess it depends. How much dead money is in the pot a flip will be profitable. Or how much of stack you have left, like after 3bet or 4bet you still have 150bb+ you can fold QQ thinking you are probably on a flip (online i might not fold depending on the field, or if there is rebuys yet…)
I read somewhere players like Daniel Negreany, Phil Ivey… this sort of players avvoid to flip, because they can get better opportunites later. And that reduces variance for live poker.
JupiterRocks said
Isn’t MP3 bet on Pre-flop considered a 3 bet to MP1’s 2 bet? So to 4 bet MP3’s 3 bet would it not be 1200?
Or am I misunderstanding the whole thing?
Correct, MP3 is 3betting, and we are 4betting squeeze (BTN called the 3bet). The size can be smaller, so the pot wont be too big on post flop, like MovieFX said “I 4-bet to ~825”, If I was going to 4bet, probably ~900 with one call, ~750 with no call.
JupiterRocks said
I thoroughly agree with what you said in #2 in your re-post. If everybody flats more than likely your ahead of everybody’s hand range.
MovieFX said
…
2. MP1/MP3/BTN flats – I doubt we get all three flatting, but regardless, if MP1 flats and no one 5-bets then I feel we are ahead going to the flop….
I also agree, if called we are most often ahead, but if 3 calls, there is a huge chance someone can beat overpair I guess.
This topic is huge!!! This is so awsome guys!! To discuss hands like this!! I am happy
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