we need to figure out if its ev+ to shove here. As there’s only two players left to act there’s less chance someone being dealt a strong hand, so we don’t have to worry about that. It really depends on how often these opponents are calling/folding. If they fold a ton shoving here would be profitable with any two! but if they call a lot we can tighten up a little bit and shove hands that play well against a wide calling range. Shoving A2o would be fine , a hand like 57s would be okay to fold here vs a wide calling range.

can anyone figure if we shove here if its ev+, assuming sb is calling 20% of the time and bb is calling 20% of the time, doubt these players are calling more often then this?

@joel….i’m not sure what u exactly mean, but  If you were going to raise 3x and one of those players shove you’ll be getting really good odds on a call ya know. I Really don’t see any merit in r/f in a spot like this, i really dont lol. Even if they are nitty , i’d rather shove then r/f tbh…

@gunn, why would you want to have a b/f range here?

@Lapp …where did u get that range from? if you shove that range from BT you’re pretty much breaking even right? I mean if these guys call wide , we really should fold the bottom of that range and exploit them by shoving a bit tighter. 

if we 2x pre here and bb shoves we are going to be getting around 1.8 to 1 , we are going to need 35.7% equity on the call , so we should be calling here pretty often. We should want to avoid situations where we are getting good odds with a hand that we don’t really want to call a shove with.

if we put v on a range of 33+ A5s+ KTs+ QTs+ JTs+ KJo+ QJo. 

Q9o is going to have 36% equity vs that, so it becomes really close. 

And this is why i’d much rather fold or shove in this spot, if i were going to choose i think shoving here is better rather then r/f. 

if we had a hand like say 52o our hand would have 30% equity vs that exact range , so i guess we could have a r/f range with the bottom of our range as we know that our hand does not have enough equity to call a shove. so yeah i guess we should have a r/f range here against opponents that are not going to play back often on the blinds. 

but at the same time making it larger may not make a difference because if v tends to call pre often with a wide range of hands and u know they are capable of calling big raises pre with those then there’s no point really unless you think you can outplay them post flop or if u think they c/f a ton to c-bets. On the other hand if we know V calls pre often and does not c/f to c-bets then we could just tighten up our range. There is no wrong in that imo. 🙂

you’re right that if they’re going to call a pre raise anyway you’d want to make it bigger with your value hands and if that’s the case you can play exploitativley. If you were only raising big with your value hands and raising small with your weaker hands and vice versa that’s exploitable for sure! for instance if we know v is going to call often pre and calls a lot otf and c/r a ton then making it larger pre with our value hands is good but what about our bluff range? against this opponent i’d rather fold.  On the other hand we may want to construct a bluffing range against an opponent that always calls your raise pre and does some weird s*** post?

 It’s not easy imo..what i do know is that our value range widens thats for sure , a hand like JTs which is a semi bluffing hand becomes a raise for value vs an opponent like that because our hand does well against their calling range. 

be nice for a pro to give their view’s on this concept.

I personally don’t think its important to balance your range against an opponent that does not play a balanced strategy. 

People are just going to fold so much and we can fold to their nuts when they shove.

we can’t assume they have the nuts when they shove , unless we know they really tight and we think that they’ll be shoving narrow range. In this spot a hand like KJs will like nearly a close call if sb/bb 3-bet shoved over our raise and thats even if we think they are shoving a somewhat tight range of hands. We just don’t wanna put ourselfs in situations like that , i’d much rather shove on the button with KJs then r/f. I doubt a tight player will be TOO tight in this spot anyhow as they are short and facing a button open. Thoughts on that?

you could argue and say V won’t have much fold equity when they do 3-bet shove and they should also know that hero is not r/f too much when we’ve raised vs 2 shorties in the blinds which would mean they won’t be 3-bet shoving really wide in this spot. Though our hand would be good enough to call vs a somewhat wider value range. If we really think they are shoving a tight range like 88+ AJs+ KQs we have like 35% equity so you could fold if you like as we need 37% equity to break even, so yeah it’s rather close even vs a tight range , if v is shoving a little bit wider then that , KJs becomes a very very easy call.