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November 4, 2013
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Good evening TPE,
I am curious to hear some of your ranges in this spot. Pardon the format ..
6 players remain in a $5 Turbo MTT, blinds are at 5000/10000/1000 and I am under the gun with just under 12BB. The whole table is at least decent. Stack sizes before posting are as follows:
Button: 272,145 (very LAG and seeming good)
SB: 412,877
BB: 132,116 (rather tight)
UTG (Hero): 119,220 with (??)
UTG+1: 144,488
CO: 134,154
I am not quite desparate yet but am needing to make moves to keep up.
I have been playing 6 max hyper turbo SNGs lately, and noticed that this whole FT stretch of hands felt pretty similar to those games except for the two bigger stacks of 27 and 41 bigs instead of everyone's push/fold stack (10 bigs in the hyper sngs).
Also is there anything besides pushing and folding? I don't think there is with 12bb without reads unless I have already been doing something like minraising at this table (which I haven't).
Thanks for reading, have a great night.
I think prob A7s+, A8o+, KJs+, KQo, 66+. Interested to hear others.
August 4, 2014
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Agreed with Hawkeye. I would do the same from under the gun. On the button folded to me though, any king, ace high or better I am pushing with that stack. Dont wanna lose fold equity.
December 28, 2012
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Hmmm, I may have to look at this then – I couldn’t see myself folding a pair here with us being the shortest stack, the blinds about to go through us, having FE and a tight player in the BB?
August 4, 2014
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I havent seen the notes on bb being tight. That actually eliminates a lot of risk. I think 22 is a push as well.
November 4, 2013
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Does the note about player in BB being 'rather tight' really open the push range from 66 down to 22?
Even with the big stack in the SB and noted LAG good player button with 27BB who will likely know what I'm doing against the tight BB?
If the first range Hawkeye posted is right, I made a mistake here. If the range widens with a tight BB, it was not a mistake.
August 4, 2014
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Looking at it the second time, I think so. I mean folding is not bad either dont get me wrong. This spot is kind of in the middle, but again its only 6 handed. You are only dominated by higher pairs, you are ahead for the rest.
December 28, 2012
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The BB being tight gives us additional FE against the guy with the most interest in this pot (because he's already contributed the most towards it).
I think preserving our FE is really important and we have 12BBs and the blinds are about to go through us.
Even if the Button is on to us, I suspect pushing 22 is unexploitable, plus he's not closing the action (squeeze effect), the tight guy is.
I'd be shocked if at least any pair wasn't a jam.
February 18, 2013
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Seems like a matter of putting these numbers into an ICM calculator to see what it tells you or is there a reason you wouldn't want to do this?
If so it would be 15.1% 33+ A8s+ A5s-A2s ATo+ K9s+ KQo+ QTs+ J10s+
I'm not sure the BB being tight comes into it that much if you are shoving from UTG? Everyone else still has the same % chance of calling you, so shoving weaker hands is likely still decreasing your EV overall. If you were in the SB that would be a different case.
I imagine there are considerations to shoving tighter than the above, if you think with the 3 other shorter stacks in play you can tighten up and wait for one or more of them to bust and take a pay jump, depends if going up a pay jump is meaningful or you just want the win.
July 12, 2013
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I'm definately nitty in these spots. I'm gonna play this spot very tight. I recognize why it's wrong (mathematically) to play as tight as I do. At the same time I like stealing from BTN and SB more often as it's more likely to get through. If you're at 7ish-bbs I start to look at opening my shove ranges UTG. A double up takes you from 6th to a comfortable 3rd. If you fold through the blinds down to 9bbs a double up to 18bbs still puts you in 3rd. This is just how I look at the spots… I know it's nitty and mathematically incorrect but… Well… That's how I play it. It would be pretty easy ( NOT EASY but..) it wouldn't be unreasonably hard to win this coming back from 5-7bbs. I double up w 7bbs puts you back in the thick of things. I think this comes from my past experience of shoving closer to an optimal range and just realizing that people will call fairly light making me think I need to give up the bottom of my range to gain what I think is a big advantage. I hope this babbling makes a bit of sense… : )
November 4, 2013
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Thanks for the reponses. lapp3r your babbling does make sense. However I wasn’t getting any tighter than hawkeye’s range .. in fact my range was almost exactly the same as his except it included A7o, which is exactly what I held.
“and not to be results oriented or anything, but”
I mintank shoved, mostly fantisizing about a first place finish in seven hands if I fold. It seems I found the very bottom of my open shoving range here because I was folding A6o and I might have shoved 55 .. I could probably fold tiny pairs here. The very next round would be a completely different story.
I shoved and ran into AK on the button.
February 18, 2013
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In play I'm also the one waiting for what feels like a better spot, much like lapp suggests he would do. But I think this means I am increasing my chances of a 3rd/4th place win, but greatly reducing my chances of 1st place, and as the money in MTTs is greatly weighted towards the top I'd be better off adopting a slightly looser strategy (i.e. 15% shove in the above spot) to increase my chances of a win.
I know in the above post Schwartz you suggest A7 is the bottom of your range and tiny pairs you'd fold, but against a calling range of say 88+ JTs QJs AJs KQo AQo+ (giving the SB a slghtly wider calling range than the rest) a small pair such as 22 is more of a favourite than A9, A8, A7 etc, unless your Ace kicker is suited.
July 12, 2013
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In play I’m also the one waiting for what feels like a better spot, much like lapp suggests he would do. But I think this means I am increasing my chances of a 3rd/4th place win, but greatly reducing my chances of 1st place, and as the money in MTTs is greatly weighted towards the top I’d be better off adopting a slightly looser strategy (i.e. 15% shove in the above spot) to increase my chances of a win.
I know in the above post Schwartz you suggest A7 is the bottom of your range and tiny pairs you’d fold, but against a calling range of say 88+ JTs QJs AJs KQo AQo+ (giving the SB a slghtly wider calling range than the rest) a small pair such as 22 is more of a favourite than A9, A8, A7 etc, unless your Ace kicker is suited.
With stack depths that play fairly shallow I don’t think you are more likely to finish 3/4 vs a win. Once were 4 handed the game obv changes again. I don’t think you need to accumulate w 6 left to win (obv you have to accumulate at some point) but you’re chance to win doesn’t increase exponentially by doubling up vs having a 12bb stack. Losing chips is more detrimental than gaining chips at this point.
February 18, 2013
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Losing chips is more detrimental than gaining chips at this point.
OK but folding and letting the blinds come through you is also losing chips, and not making a land grab for the chips in the middle with a shoving hand and good fold equity is also losing chips.
You may well be right here lapp, and I don't get into enough final table spots to know any better, just trying to see what the numbers suggest shuold be EV here and battling the NIT within me as I need to play more aggressively in these spots, but also trying to balance this by not getting an overly aggressive mindset.
In terms of this post I'd say at the moment I'm on the fence, i.e. I'm not convinced if there is a clear cut answer to what is right or wrong in shoving a 15% range or folding the bottom part of that range to wait for a better spot. I guess game flow would come into it as well, i.e. if you haven't shoved for a few orbits, or if you've been fairly shove happy.
July 12, 2013
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I hear what you’re saying for sure. I did say I play these spots tighter than most and mathematically incorrect… But it just comes from experience and a gameplan that I feel has worked best. Enough of me repeating myself…. Lol..
Here’s something for you to check out.
February 18, 2013
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Thanks for that lapp, interesting sheet – so here she would advocate a 13.6% shove range with 12BBs – do you know if that data has come from her working out over time what has and hasn't worked well or is it just a tighter approximation of what you would get if you plugged numbers into say -> …..shicm.html
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