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What flop/turn bet sizing will maximize FE on this texture? I opted for
the ~1/3 cbet, Pot Size turn shove, here, because it is nice to cbet
that size with my complete range on this texture, and I set up a lot of
pot size shoves in general, but I am thinking something a lil bigger
otf, smaller ott is prob better? Whats your default sizing for this
board? How much does it vary when you are trying to max FE vs Max Val?
Oh, and do we like trying to make villain fold here?
Hand converter-Pokerhand.org
PokerStars, $125/250 NO Limit Texas Holdem Tournament, 9 Players
Gandalf MR checks, YaGotBurnt bets $1,350, Gandalf MR calls $1,350,
Gandalf MR checks, YaGotBurnt bets $6,190 and is all-in,
Oh, and… First!
WEEEEEEE!!! grats on first strat thread.
for some reason your hand isn’t showing. if you PM/AIM me the HH i’d be happy to fool with the converter to try and get it working.
Hagbard Celine said:
for some reason your hand isn’t showing.
That was intentional. I have [X X].
Id like to respond to this thread. However having said that I need to know the hole cards lol. So IM hagbard so we can have at this one. 🙂
bigdogpckt5s said:
I need to know the hole cards lol.
Hmmm, ok, If you guys really want to know the hole cards I had Ad7d. I purposely did not list them because I didn’t want to talk about pre, and because my hand is irrelevant, as I need a fold to win, and I have very lil opportunity to improve and a very small chance of winning at sd w/o improvement (I suppose occasionally villain has KJs/J9s).
gotcha. just thought there was a chance you have a 9 or J in your hand, and although you lack showdown value, that you might have some equity.
FWIW we beat KJ!
as to the bet-sizing, and whether or not to make it different with our hand and with our value range imo depends a lot on the opponent. if he’s a decent hand-reader, and you guys have history then i’d be trying to keep my bet-sizing consistent, and although i might go a little bigger on the flop, i like you sizing in general–small on the flop, setting up a turn shove.
if he’s a drooler or even just a random who probably isn’t paying too close attention then i think you can use different sizing, and in a spot like this i’d go a bit bigger on the flop in order to increase fold equity.
as played, i’m not sure how much i like the turn shove because on this texture i’m not sure what we’re getting to fold. we probably get JJ/Tx to fold, but i don’t really count on people to fold the top pair or better. perhaps if the board were a little wetter and there were more draws he could peel flop/fold turn with.
but really it’s a little hard to say readless, and without much of an idea how villain plays. is there any relevant history or notes on villain? without that i’d most likely just cbet the flop ~1700-2000 and give up if called.
You only have a potsized bet left on the turn. If you are looking for the other player to fold, I think your only option is to shove all-in. It would really suck to make another 1/3rd sized bet on turn only for our opponent to think he has fold equity and shove on us, forcing us to fold after we’ve put in over half our stack. You don’t want a player to think he has fold equity on you. If he has a ten and you shove, it’s a difficult spot for him. If you just bet it is still a difficult spot for him, but even if he shoves 3% of the time with a ten, it’s bad for us 100% of the time.
As for the flop bet, I probably do make it slightly larger bc when people raise more pre than they do on the flop it is preceived as weakness. However, I love the sizing in terms of setting up a pot-sized shove turn. Just telling you something I *might* preceive if I’m paying attention and I’m your opponent.
Wein said:
You only have a potsized bet left on the turn. If you are looking for the other player to fold, I think your only option is to shove all-in.
I would never dream of doing anything but shove the turn! I think you are right, that maybe, just slightly more than my 3b size has a lil more FE and looks less suspect to most avg villains. I got called down ridic light here (by a ten), and I think it is because he thought my cbet size was FOS.
And also, sorry, if we want to talk about pre, thats fine. I think it is a
decent spot to be light. Villain was pretty active and we aren’t gonna get 4b
light too often this early in the tournament without any significant 3b
history… so, we have no furthur close decisions pre, except against
Roothlus, who is going to play face up here and only be shipping 5% of
the time, at which point we still have a marginally +ev call to make. The hand is one that obv is fine to have in my 3b range, and 3b is clearly better than flat if we are going to play.
Anyone disagree?
Awwww my bad. I was all prepared to give you some insight into inducing a shove depending on your hand etc. When in fact I missed the whole point of your hand that you need a fold because you have complete air biscuits. That is my bad. Putting all that aside. Your line is ok. I would just tweak it a bit and bet slightly over your pre flop 3 bet size. So betting 1650 or so on flop bet. Then my turn bet instead of shoving I would bet almost all of my stack. But not shove. I always perceive the shove as weak. So I would bet almost all of my stack making it totally obvious that I am completely committed. I feel like thats the strongest line and your best chance of getting a turn fold.
no i think preflop is totally fine.
like you say, he’s rarely 4betting. so most of the time he either folds or we get to play a 3bet pot in position with a suited ace, which is a fine situation in general.
Hagbard Celine said:
no i think preflop is totally fine.
like you say, he’s rarely 4betting. so most of the time he either folds or we get to play a 3bet pot in position with a suited ace, which is a fine situation in general.
I agree with this. I think pre-flop is an aggressive move i don’t usually make, but I like the thought process as to why we would do it.
Oh, something just occured to me, while typing that bit about the 3b…
What about the 3b size?
If we make it really small, like 1225, we actually can make a thin fold against Roothlus when he does shove, given that he shoves the same range, instead of making a thin call. Is it better to reduce variance here, or do we lose some of our FE, and perhaps open our selves up to being exploited by Roothlus?
I think the bigger 3b size, with intention to call a roothlus shove is better overall (it is certainly less exploitable!), but Im not sure?
while i doubt roothlus ever sees you 3bet to 1200 and thinks to himself that he can exploit you–i’d imagine he doesn’t think he has fold equity pretty much regardless of size given positions–i still prefer to go at least 1500 because it gets the original raiser to fold more often than 1200.
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