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April 26, 2013
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This is from The Big $22 on stars.eu. We were early ITM, about 550 left, 900 paid. Sitting slightly below average with our stack.
Normal play would obiously be to 3bet to something like 9000 and then call a shove or play postflop if flatted.
The reason I shoved was: AJo doesn't play too beautiful postflop. Also villain might be inclined to shove his small pocketpairs like 22 – 66 and KQ. By shoving he will likely call us with 77+, maybe KQs and all ATs, AJo+. This shouldn't be the case too often and we still have decent equity against this range.
So main reason to shove is obviously to avoid a difficult postflop decision. Imo we can never flat here as we are ahead of his range way too often. If he was in the CO and we on the button this might be more likely an option as we have position. (?)
What do you think about this thought-process? Also see my final thoughts below!
PokerStars Tournament , $20+$2 USD Hold'em No Limit – Level XXI (800/1600) – 2015/05/31 22:43:32 CET [2015/05/31 16:43:32 ET]
Table '1235796802 265' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: andru.kras (85232 in chips)
Seat 2: andreDEG (45155 in chips)
Seat 3: Virgilik (71956 in chips)
Seat 4: D.Aranha_j8 (49905 in chips)
Seat 5: Rounder63 (49144 in chips)
Seat 6: Henrianh (22360 in chips)
Seat 7: da Ape (56685 in chips)
Seat 8: mocrecords (33427 in chips)
Seat 9: Hero (45449 in chips)
andru.kras: posts the ante 200
andreDEG: posts the ante 200
Virgilik: posts the ante 200
D.Aranha_j8: posts the ante 200
Rounder63: posts the ante 200
Henrianh: posts the ante 200
da Ape: posts the ante 200
mocrecords: posts the ante 200
Hero: posts the ante 200
mocrecords: posts small blind 800
Hero: posts big blind 1600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [A
J
]
andru.kras: folds
andreDEG: folds
Virgilik: folds
D.Aranha_j8: folds
Rounder63: folds
Henrianh: folds
da Ape: raises 1600 to 3200
mocrecords: folds
Hero: raises 42049 to 45249 and is all-in
da Ape: calls 42049
Villain was angry at my play and said this was a clear 3bet/c spot and a fishy shove. I think he is more right than wrong, if we were a little bit shallower this might be a good shove, but maybe here we just have too many chips to just shove.
Any ideas? Thanks!
February 28, 2015
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With somewhere around 25 big blinds it is a bit of an ambitious shove unsuited but against a button raise preflop you’re definitely ahead of his range so I don’t mind the aggressive play.
April 3, 2015
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Like the previous reply, I also think the shove is too big.
Off course, the btn will be more often light than not here, but a standard to large 3 bet will accomplish the same. I would'nt err on the small size of the 3 bet though, as you are oop and the btn is a pro as you write, so you will often be outplayed post. Give him bad odds to try to outplay you.
But when you shove here, villain will play perfectly against you very easily.
Apart from that, I would definately ignore anything villain says in the chat, especially if he i angry/tilted at you as you say.
This makes me believe maybe villain is not a pro after all, as it is a cardinal sin, and rule #1 that don't ever berate another player for bad/fishy play after loosing a pot to him.
my $3.92
November 24, 2013
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Well putting 26 BB at risk to win like 3 BB is not a great bet, therefore, yes its not an optimal play. But if you only do it here and there and OOP its ok I think, anything that puts villains off balance, especially in the late game, is good.
April 30, 2015
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3-bet and evaluate would be the angle I would take as well as if you can get the villain to fold to a good sized 3-bet, you are minimizing your risk. Also, if I am the villain, your shove will definitely rule out AQ+ JJ+ or 88- from your ranging by me, whereas, good sized 3-bet will keep me more in the dark whether you are 3-betting with a monster or 3-betting to induce a fold.
TPE Pro
August 25, 2012
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I do think it's probably more profitable to 3-bet/call than it is to shove, but don't let your play be influenced by what anyone says to you at the table. Without disclosing what my own read on this particular player is (since I do recognise the screenname), he's not much of a 'pro' if he's going to go around telling people how bad they are and berating players he believes to be weaker than himself. I don't think the opinion of anyone who educates you at the table is worth listening to, since anyone who was really worth their salt in poker wouldn't be educating at the table in the first place.
August 25, 2014
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I don't think shoving is great for multiple reasons but the main reasons are that we essentially cap our range and risk too many chips to win too few. I don't think you would shove AK, QQ+ here so surely villain can just play perfectly against you.
I think 3betting is def better than flatting preflop but if you 3bet and get called or if you just flat pre, both situations lead to you being on a flop with a small stack to pot ratio with a hand that dominates nearly all of villains range (he'd shove better pre) leaving a flop range that has many dominated Jx, Ax and small pairs.
3bet – call is best and i think flatting pre is better than 3bet shoving. You shouldn't really be risking your tournament life to avoid difficult decisions.
August 25, 2014
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And i agree with not taking advice from players that chat at the table. They're generally tilting and rarely any good
August 25, 2014
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I don't understand how him shoving dominated hands like KJ, J9s, A5s is bad for us. Yes he may shove 22 that he may fold but we have a great 3bet call situation if villain is aware you could be 3betting him light. We love when he 4bet shoves, we like when he calls our 3bet with a dominated range.
November 24, 2013
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michaeldi11on said:
I don't think shoving is great for multiple reasons but the main reasons are that we essentially cap our range and risk too many chips to win too few. I don't think you would shove AK, QQ+ here so surely villain can just play perfectly against you.
I think 3betting is def better than flatting preflop but if you 3bet and get called or if you just flat pre, both situations lead to you being on a flop with a small stack to pot ratio with a hand that dominates nearly all of villains range (he'd shove better pre) leaving a flop range that has many dominated Jx, Ax and small pairs.
3bet – call is best and i think flatting pre is better than 3bet shoving. You shouldn't really be risking your tournament life to avoid difficult decisions.
I agree with that. My statement earlier that its ok to mix it up here and there did def include that you would also do this with better hands. If you only do it with non-nutted hands like AJo it's quite bad.
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