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September 14, 2014
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#Game No : 528155355 ***** 888poker Hand History for Game 528155355 ***** $200/$400 Blinds No Limit Holdem - *** Tournament #68336951 $7.25 + $0.75 - Table #3 9 Max (Real Money) Seat 5 is the button Total number of players : 8 Seat 1: ismarc7 ( $12,789 ) Seat 3: remzi366 ( $6,439 ) Seat 4: Takao1 ( $11,448 ) Seat 5: tohaar11 ( $15,031 ) Seat 6: 1fabinho ( $6,371 ) Seat 7: london_ace ( $10,675 ) Seat 9: cooper156 ( $8,507 ) Seat 10: BrokePro ( $8,851 ) 1fabinho posts ante [$40] cooper156 posts ante [$40] BrokePro posts ante [$40] Takao1 posts ante [$40] remzi366 posts ante [$40] tohaar11 posts ante [$40] london_ace posts ante [$40] ismarc7 posts ante [$40] 1fabinho posts small blind [$200] london_ace posts big blind [$400] ** Dealing down cards ** Dealt to london_ace [ 7, 9
cooper156 folds
BrokePro folds ismarc7 folds remzi366 folds Takao1 raises [$800] tohaar11 calls [$800] 1fabinho folds london_ace ????
Hey
Don't have any reads on either opponents.
My image i've been playing fairly tight , i've only 4-bet shoved on one occasion.
which line do you prefer , flat or squeeze and why?
Cheers.
January 28, 2013
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Both are viable options.
I prefer taking our good immediate odds and seeing a flop with a hand that flops pretty well. When this hand hits big it is quite disguised and we can play alot of our pairs/draws as check/shoves with this stack size (whilst having backdoor equity alot of the time).
EDIT: for stack size considerations
January 16, 2015
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I think in the dark I'd be inclined to flat. I'd rather have some sort of read on my opponents before jamming 25bbs with a fairly weak hand in a pretty obvious squeeze spot. Granted, your opponents are going to have some sort of realish hand to call here, but even so, being such an obvious squeeze spot is going to widen their calling ranges somewhat.
Jamming is probably outright +EV though (just based on the fact that they are both going to fold a vast majority of the time). Flatting is probably going to generally lose a little in the long run, but you're probably not going to continue unless you flop the world so risk little.
Essentially the looser my opponents are opening the more likely I am to shove and the tighter the more likely I am to flat.
*Another option would be to make a small 3-bet (2000ish) to represent a monster and then jam any flop (hopefully a flop with an A, K, or Q — though I personally wouldn't object to anything that actually made me something of a real hand), it would really suck though to have an opponent come over the top preflop and to have to fold 20% of your stack. (In practice, I'd need a better read on my opponents to make this play than I'd need to jam though).
*Almost certainly the worst option (not considering folding an option).
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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BionicApe said:
Jamming is probably outright +EV though (just based on the fact that they are both going to fold a vast majority of the time). Flatting is probably going to generally lose a little in the long run, but you're probably not going to continue unless you flop the world so risk little.
Huh? I don't agree with this, but if you really thought calling were -EV, wouldn't you strictly prefer jamming?
Also by “the world” do you mean a “an 8-out draw”? Cuz you should generally be ck/shoving those. And I'd be reluctant to check-fold a pair, though there are situations where I would.
FWIW I imagine callling > jamming >>>>>>>>folding.
September 14, 2014
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Well i decided to jam anyway , both villian folded, though that does not mean it was correct for me to GII , there will be times were flatting would be better then shoving, just depends on what you think will be most ev+ depending on your opponents that your facing.
thanks for the feedback guys.
January 16, 2015
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Yeah, I usually try and write a draft before I post to avoid saying dumb stuff like this, alas, pragmatically speaking, I can safely say it's probably not the last time I'll distinguish myself in such a manner.
I'm unsure why I would say that calling looks like a slightly losing proposition, getting 6-1 on our money we're breaking even with bigger pocket pairs, so it's clearly going to be +EV versus our opponent's entire range.
I guess I have some uncertainty about our ability to actually realize that equity though (wtf are ya gonna do if you make top pair here – hopefully check-shove, depending on the flop, but good lord it's a wee bit sketchy).
When I'm sitting at 25bbs like this, calling with 79s out of position makes me feel like I'm just throwing away another of my precious blinds considering how infrequently I'm going to win this particular hand.
Knowing that I can't fold here almost makes me feel like I'm being forced to throw away a blind and even if it's correct I'm just not thrilled about calling.
Of course, that 1bb to call isn't an expenditure, it's an investment, but when I'm actually playing it doesn't feel like an investment.
Why wouldn't I take a line that looks like it might be more +EV than another? Uncertainty and risk. I question my own observations and assumptions when I'm playing and in this instance even if shoving looks like it might be +EV, the consequences of my assumptions proving wrong are too severe to warrant taking such a line.
FWIW – I specified that I'd only be willing to shove here with sufficient insight on my opponents.
I actually wasn't aware that 'the world' is a technical term. I was using it loosely to mean any big hand two pair or better. And by 'continue' I didn't mean to imply 'lead out', but continue playing the hand. (Honestly I'm most likely going to continue if I make top pair too, but man, that's a slightly uncomfortable spot).
September 14, 2014
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I guess I have some uncertainty about our ability to actually realize that equity though (wtf are ya gonna do if you make top pair here – hopefully check-shove, depending on the flop, but good lord it's a wee bit sketchy).
When I'm sitting at 25bbs like this, calling with 79s out of position makes me feel like I'm just throwing away another of my precious blinds considering how infrequently I'm going to win this particular hand.
when we call with a very wide range from the bb i agree that it's going to be hard to make a strong hand that oftren , though there's going to be spots were we may find good bluffing opportunities and win the pot uncontested. Both villains range's are also going to be pretty wide given that there's been an open from the CO and a flat call from the BTN, so they are also not going to make a strong enough hand that often either.
If we flop top pair on a 952r , i don't think we should be looking to c/s all that often since 25bb is quite a bit of chips to get in, though we could c/c , if however both villian check the flop we should lead most turns imo , for thin value , i guess the worse turn cards would be anything higher then a T, anyone agree?
August 4, 2013
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weird stack size for that hand, i personally think you had too many chips to jam but not enough chips that flatting is profitable. i like a fold the most but a squeeze here might be the play (depending on game flow, the villains' tendencies, etc)
January 28, 2013
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folding_aces_pre_yo said:
I guess I have some uncertainty about our ability to actually realize that equity though (wtf are ya gonna do if you make top pair here – hopefully check-shove, depending on the flop, but good lord it's a wee bit sketchy).
When I'm sitting at 25bbs like this, calling with 79s out of position makes me feel like I'm just throwing away another of my precious blinds considering how infrequently I'm going to win this particular hand.
I believe we would realize our equity alot more often with <25bb here then we would with something in the range of 30-50bb. You really shouldnt feel like you're throwing away a big blind because we are getting good oddds to call and am positive this is a +EV play. If anything you are throwing away chips if you fold this spot.
folding_aces_pre_yo said:
If we flop top pair on a 952r , i don't think we should be looking to c/s all that often since 25bb is quite a bit of chips to get in, though we could c/c , if however both villian check the flop we should lead most turns imo , for thin value , i guess the worse turn cards would be anything higher then a T, anyone agree?
Check/shoving top pair is quite easy against a bet from any villain at this stack size in my opinion. Obviously a card 9+ is bad for us and would depend on the individual situation with bet sizing, villains image etc
September 14, 2014
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@kal ,I was quoting BionicApe , the top paragraph is what he wrote.
I guess check shoving is not terrible , we may not do well against villlian’s calling range though there’s still a lot of benefit of making villain fold hands that have decent equity i.e A3s/A4s.
January 28, 2013
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Right.. This forum buggers up a bit and no formatting on your previous post made me not realise it was a quote from Bionic. Anyhow check/shoving is not terrible when we have pair/draw etc because im sure its +EV and whilst we may not be doing well against villains calling range (if its tight) a lot of our EV probably comes from making them fold. If the villains calling range includes overcards when we hit top pair or pair and draws it makes it pretty +EV.
January 28, 2013
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I will give this a go in CRev when I get home.
Want to post some ranges for the opener and flatter? (give a few ranges so we can see how it changes +EV)
It may take me a bit to figure out the drawing random flop and order of what to shove / call but I will certainly try my best.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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BionicApe said:
When I'm sitting at 25bbs like this, calling with 79s out of position makes me feel like I'm just throwing away another of my precious blinds considering how infrequently I'm going to win this particular hand.
Knowing that I can't fold here almost makes me feel like I'm being forced to throw away a blind and even if it's correct I'm just not thrilled about calling.Of course, that 1bb to call isn't an expenditure, it's an investment, but when I'm actually playing it doesn't feel like an investment.
Yeah, I know this is a common sentiment, but I really want to encourage you to change the way you think about this. You need to come to see that the equity you have in the pot is worth more than the 1BB you need to invest (good word) in order to have a chance of realizing it. You are throwing away more than 1BB when you fold.
I hope my last post didn't come across as too aggressive. I'm not trying to be a **** by pointing out inconsistent things that you say, I'm trying to help you find places where you can improve your thought processes.
January 16, 2015
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No worries, man. I'll admit, the possibility that I had somehow inspired your ire had crossed my mind, but it seemed likely that your spirited response was more attributable to passionate feelings about the subject than my social ineptitude.
In any case, I'm not paying you guys to be coddled. I'm not here to be told my manner of thinking about the game and play style is just as valid as anybody's. Poker is a demanding game and not only do I appreciate your criticism, I'm grateful that you actually care enough to don your judicial wig and gown to address my fallacies.
The internet is by and large an unfriendly place, not just because of the prevalence of the troll contingent, but even between two generally considerate people shit gets lost in translation and feelings get hurt inadvertently. It's just not the best medium for interpersonal communication and with a subject as inherently personal as poker there's bound to be friction.
I'm okay with that.
Blah, blah, blah… I could go on and on, bottom line is though, it's all good, bro.
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