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September 14, 2014
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#Game No : 764403411 ***** 888poker Hand History for Game 764403411 ***** $900/$1,800 Blinds No Limit Holdem - *** Tournament #70636089 Free 10 Max (Real Money) Seat 6 is the button Total number of players : 8 Seat 1: anarhuseynov ( $48,068 ) Seat 2: Ninesuns888 ( $50,746 ) Seat 3: london_ace ( $62,801 ) Seat 4: smuc1321 ( $82,909 ) Seat 5: M4tude ( $70,848 ) Seat 6: in_box ( $66,811 ) Seat 9: FelipePucc1 ( $39,792 ) Seat 10: Kilobabos ( $63,813 ) FelipePucc1 posts ante [$225] in_box posts ante [$225] Ninesuns888 posts ante [$225] M4tude posts ante [$225] anarhuseynov posts ante [$225] london_ace posts ante [$225] smuc1321 posts ante [$225] Kilobabos posts ante [$225] FelipePucc1 posts small blind [$900] Kilobabos posts big blind [$1,800] ** Dealing down cards ** Dealt to london_ace [ Q, K
] anarhuseynov folds Ninesuns888 folds london_ace raises [$3,600] smuc1321 folds M4tude folds in_box folds FelipePucc1 folds Kilobabos calls [$1,800] ** Dealing flop ** [ Q
, 2
] ($9.900) Kilobabos checks london_ace checks ** Dealing turn ** [ 8
no reads
I'm thinking our hand is worth at least 2 streets , my value target would be Qx 7x . I decided to check back flop
for pot control but at the same time i dont think pot control is necessary here given that we're likely to be ahead of villians c/c range , thats if v did decide to call that is.
I'm just wondering if pot control important when stacks are this shallow? should we be aiming to get 3 streets of value or 2 here?
i'm sometimes unsure , there's plenty of ways you could play this hand. 1. bet flop , check turn bet river. 2. check back flop , bet turn and river. or
3. bet flop.turn and river!
i'm just not sure about the 3rd option are we really getting called by worse? i reckon at this stack depth though Top pair is pretty decent espically vs
a bb calling range. I'm just not sure if v will call 3 streets with a hand like Q9/QT , hence why i'm thinking we can only get 2 streets even at
this stack depth ( spr of 6)
of course if stacks were deeper pot controlling becomes more important , but when we are this shallow TPGK becomes pretty strong, just not sure
if its strong enough to get v stack in with worse.
thoughts on this?
cheers.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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I think there are a lot of runouts where you can bet three streets, which means you need to bet the first one. I'd rather check back weaker Qs, like if you are opening QT or Q9s from this position.
September 14, 2014
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what if you were OOP with those weaker range of hands? do you think betting Q9 on a Q72r is better then checking? Being IP is much more easier since we have more information. I reckon if we were oop we should tend to front load our value and if we are called OTF we should probably c/c turn ( for pot control) and re-evaluate river. Does that sound okay?
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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How does c/c turn keep the pot small? What would you do with JJ? Would you ever check top pair OOP on the flop? If not, you're pretty much always folding after you check this flop, right?
September 14, 2014
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your right c/c does not really keep the pot small. Anyhow , with JJ , i think that would go in my c/c range and so would other hands like 88/99/TT as for hands like 55/66 , i'd c-bet those to lock up the equity in the pot. I will also c/c weak Kx otf , there's not many bad turns for us (hardly any) so there's no need for us to bet to protect our hand against draws otf , so yeah c/c would be ideal. I may also decide to c/c a hand like KK/AA here as well, though i think there's more merit in betting those to get value from Qx , to get stacks in by the river.
I actually don't think i'm c/f this flop that often actually , what's your c/f range on this flop? , I'd probably c/f a hand like 33 here, those small pocket pairs are pretty much drawing dead when called, on the other hand whilst i dont think v will fold worse , i still think there's merit in betting a hand like 33 , getting v to fold hands like KJ/JTs (hands that have decent equity) would be great. I must say though this is a good flop to c-bet , pretty difficult for v to continue here without a hand like TP or middle pair, they'll be folding here often i reckon.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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OK yeah c/f to multiple barrels then. My point is if you aren’t c/c a hand like this you probably will be folding too much at some point.
September 14, 2014
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so basically you're saying its important to put hands like TP (sets/2pair for balance) in our c/c range so that we can strengthen our c/c range as we will be folding too much to 2-3 barrels. Basically it allows us to get to showdown for cheaper with our marginal hand if we're capable of taking the same line with our monsters/marginal hands yeh? if v knows we're capable of c/c with monsters , they wont bluff as much.
If for instance yeah you were UTG at these effective stacks and you were called by UTG2 and your read was that they were a good aggressive opponenent and the flop was the exact same as OP, c/c would be pretty damm good. I mean a “good” opponent calling range from that postion has to be pretty strong. however if you were called by an opponent on the button which u had no reads on , you'd prolly bet KQo here OOP to get your 3 streets of value from a hand like QJs i reckon 🙂
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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folding_aces_pre_yo said:
so basically you're saying its important to put hands like TP (sets/2pair for balance) in our c/c range so that we can strengthen our c/c range as we will be folding too much to 2-3 barrels. Basically it allows us to get to showdown for cheaper with our marginal hand if we're capable of taking the same line with our monsters/marginal hands yeh? if v knows we're capable of c/c with monsters , they wont bluff as much.
If for instance yeah you were UTG at these effective stacks and you were called by UTG2 and your read was that they were a good aggressive opponenent and the flop was the exact same as OP, c/c would be pretty damm good. I mean a “good” opponent calling range from that postion has to be pretty strong. however if you were called by an opponent on the button which u had no reads on , you'd prolly bet KQo here OOP to get your 3 streets of value from a hand like QJs i reckon 🙂
It's not just that it protects some other part of your range. The point is that if you have a lot of hands that can't stand up to multiple barrels after you check, your opponent has a lot of incentive to bluff into your checks. Thus, checking and calling with Q9 may be at least as profitable, if not moreso, than betting it.
With a stronger Q, this is less true, because as you say when you check KQ you may miss value from QT or QJ. Because you have so many stronger hands in your betting range, though, V doesn't have a lot of incentive to call you down with lots of hands weaker than Q9. Thus, betting Q9 for value across multiple streets isn't going to be super-profitable.
In truth, because this is presumably one of the weakest Qx you could have, you shouldn't really have a lot in the way of implied odds regardless of how you play it. In other words, your EV on this flop probably isn't much greater than your equity, regardless of the line you take.
September 14, 2014
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very nice! That has helped me understand a little bit more then before, thank you Andrew.
May 20, 2013
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Now I need some guidance as I am looking at it through another lens… I am the pre-flop raiser and have a single caller from the blinds. I see what could be called “a textboox example of a dry flop”. I expect his c/c range here to be a 7 (or a set of 7s), an A2 (or a set of 2s), a “naked Queen”, or a hand played weird on purpose like AK or AA (but wont see that very often here due to BB depth of 35 BB I reckon).
My opponent would expect me to bet nearly 100% of my range, ESPECIALLY where I missed the flop. if I make a 1/3 size pot c-bet, I would expect him to call with any speculitive hand + his monsters. But more to my point, I keep my range as wide as possible here as I can c-bet 100% of my range on this board. And I allows me to keep monsters through air in my range here. And through my rose colored glasses over the course of the history of my range, I want to maximize my return on monsters. I dont see as much value in trying to minimize my risk with TP on a dry board. If he comes alive and check-raises me or c/c turn and fires river, I have a decision to make, but I keep monsters in my range in this scenario. (I hope I am articulating this clearly)
so now I want to understand why this line of thinking is not optimal…
What is the real perceived value to checking behind? Are you expecting him to bluff a turn card OOP?
Is it worth that much to pot control with TP with an isolated opponent on a dry board with 35BB to start?
December 16, 2013
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I think you need to always c-bet here. He is probably calling preflop with a small pocket pair or an ace both could hurt you on the turn. Not sure if checking behind helps to balance your play.
September 14, 2014
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@luckydog , we could balance this by checking back monsters like QQ/77/22 , though i'd rather bet 22/77 as i'll be looking to get value from a Q, which is very likely to call 3 streets espically hands like QTs/QJs, they may very well call. Not to sure if weaker Qx will call, i'd say they'll probably call flop/turn and fold river. If we've been very active though , it would not surprise me if v called 3 streets with a hand like Q8o , trying to bluff catch. I also don't think we should be too scared of an ace , the chances of v improving to an ace is not high, also remember v will be calling with a very wide range of hands and If we do check back flop with a weaker Qx, we have to call turn/river on most run outs , since we've under-represented our hand. Anyhow my check back was not good with KQ i should really be trying to get 3 streets with my hand just like andrew said.
@columbo . yeah my plan was to back load my value , so check back flop bet turn and river, given the stacks are shallow and v's calling range is so wide , we can get 3 streets here though, would be different if we were deep stacked, pot controlling would be better then.
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