foucault, i don’t understand what you mean by that , ” a balanced line is optimal when you dont have anything to exploit” ?

so if we can exploit v , lets say they just never fold , then shoving c/s flush draws in this spot would not be good as we dont have any fold equity? so we can exploit that and go for a different line , is that what you mean? adjusting to their tendencies..

also lets just say the turn was a spade, i’m assuming you’re still c/s shoving turn anyway yeh? I mean if v bets turn his range will consist of Ax and maybe flushes or maybe he’s picked up a draw with a backdoor otf. anyhow i doubt we’re going to fold a set here that often even if the turn was a spade.

joel, are you c/r small with your draws here? unlikely imo..so basically c/r small and shove turn with your value hands and play your bluff range differently? that play becomes exploitative , so for that reason i am not to sure if that’s OK as its not a balanced line. Though at the same time it seems that from what foucault said we don’t really need to be balanced here since we dont have anything to exploit , so maybe you’re right.

foucault,  in this spot , all i know is v is aggro , so i’m assuming he’s going to fold a lot if we check/shove flop since they are likely to get with a wider range post flop. You previously said its difficult to balance if we were going to check/shove our flush draws 100%. so basically we need to have a c/c range otf with our draws and plan to go for a check/shove ott which we will do with our monsters as well. If v does check back turn and we get to the river with lets say 68ss 78ss , we could lead out for 1/3 of the pot just like we would with the strongest part of our range , given that their range is weak.

thoughts on that?

another thing, would you consider shoving river with the busted draws here? even if u know v range is weak?  only problem is that we are not really balanced but i doubt that’s a problem here right? where as if we never had anything to exploit then yeah a balanced line would be optimal. i Remember in your bluffing series you said something like , you should bet smaller vs better players and bigger vs weaker opponents. May you elaborate on that please?

I suggest betting 1/3 pot on the river with the strongest hands given that V range is weak and I would bet bigger if i think their range is strong, it really depends on what their range is. I learnt this from also your bluffing series!

so yeah When i say V range is weak i’m thinking K or Q high ,  though if v did have a hand like KQ/KJ , dont u think they’ll barrel those OTT instead of check behind?

anyhow if we are trying to get value from Tx then we could bet more then 1/3 pot. So let’s say you think v range consist of many Tx how much are you betting there? i’m guessing around 1/2 of the pot would be fine. if our bluff target was Tx i’d probably shove river is that okay or would u bet like 1/2 instead? if we shove it would be just over pot.

It does you’re right, that clearly does not make any sense at all , If i were going to bet small when I want a call and bet big when I want a fold that would be very exploitative and I’d be very easy to play against and that’s very unbalanced and a terrible play. Unless of course I’m playing poker with my sister , then yeah it would be okay since she would not be able to exploit that lol, she don’t know how to play poker and neither do I it seems haha 😛

Let me start again, Basically I would bet 1/3 pot with my busted draws just like with the strongest part of my range if i thought they had very weak hands. so if i were going to make a value bet otr my value target would be very weak hands which does not include Ax.

my question is what do we do  if v range consist of Tx and 88/99 , i mean a bet of 1/3 pot wont really get folds if V range consist of those…so thats why i thought maybe shoving might be the case here but it clearly cant be because with this hand 55 that we had in OP , if i thought v range consist of Tx i’d just make it anywhere between 1/3 to 1/2 of the pot which means i should also be betting around that size with my busted draws or air. The problem is many weak players just don’t fold even their weak/marginal hands also another thing is that the stack sizes are really awkward here if we decide to bet 1/2 of the pot to get v to fold Tx or 88/99 (maybe even weaker hands) if they call we will be left with around 85k which is 10bb. So i think we really should bet 1/3 of the pot in this spot with our monsters and our bluff range, as u know a bet of 1/3 pot only needs to succeed 75% of the time to break even.

otr we have like 17bb btw.

I see where you’re getting at here that’s just another leak of mine which needs to be improved on. 

thanks Foucault.

pot control is important when stacks are deep though? in this hand the spr is only 3? question is if v bets turn are they going to get called by worse?

against a loose thinking player if we are going to bet bigger on the river with our value range i’m assuming you’ll bet big with your bluff range too, which of course is fine. however if their range is really weak otr , what’s the point in betting big with our value range since v wont have any hands to pay off a bet and as for our bluff range we would not need to bet big if their range is weak either since a small bet of 1/3 pot only needs to suceed 25% of the time. Though if we think v calls to often then maybe we should go bigger.

thoughts on that?