View Plans & Pricing

If you are signed in and are seeing this message, please be sure you have selected a user name in My Profile. The forum requires it.
A A A
Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

Topic Rating: 3 Topic Rating: 3 Topic Rating: 3 Topic Rating: 3 Topic Rating: 3 Topic Rating: 3 (2 votes) 
sp_TopicIcon
Playing 99 in early stages
Avatar
rose
Playing Freerolls
Members
Forum Posts: 16
Member Since:
December 1, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
December 30, 2015 - 11:12 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

 I have a hard time with mid pairs. I know I made a lot of mistakes in this hand, but I would like to learn how to play this optimally. 

…..id/7223247

 

I only have 20 hands on the villain so I don’t have any history of his playing style. I’m a bit embarrassed to post this because I know I played this poorly, but this is one of those spots where I’m very uncertain.

Foucault

TPE Pro
Members
Forum Posts: 2067
Member Since:
December 6, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
December 30, 2015 - 12:08 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Nothing to be embarrassed about, I’m sure this is a spot many people struggle with. It deals with one of the fundamental differences between deep-stacked and short-stacked play: with a deeper stack, you need to be more concerned about protecting your stack and avoiding tough decisions or putting in a big chunk of money from way behind, rather than protecting your equity in a pot that is small relative to the effective stacks

Raising the flop is the first mistake. Although I can understand why it’s tempting – you’d like to fold out overcards and a few worse hands will call – you are not likely to be ahead of Villain’s range for continuing to your raise. In other words, although you gain something from your opponent’s folds, you are putting money in bad when called (even though you’ll occasionally be ahead). When you put more money into the pot, you strengthen your opponent’s range. She will fold her weakest hands – the ones you’re furthest ahead of – and her range will become strong enough that you can’t be excited about putting more money into the pot. That’s not such a problem with shallow stacks, because you can just get all in on the flop without risking much relative to the pot, but here there are still two more streets of betting to go and by raising the flop you set yourself up for a lot of bad spots when your opponent doesn’t fold. (And if you’re really just hoping for a fold, then you’re bluffing and it doesn’t matter that you have 99 – in fact the 99 is a liability because it has few outs against your opponent’s continuing range).

Betting the turn is essentially the same mistake, and calling the check-raise is a disaster. At this point all you can beat is a bluff, and although it’s not entirely impossible that your opponent is bluffing, you are so far behind her value range that you still can’t profitably call. Not to mention that even if you do call, she can still keep bluffing on the river, at which point you end up folding anyway.

You mentioned in a previous thread that you were concerned about getting exploited by aggressive players. It’s quite possible that in spots like the turn here you have too wide of a bet-folding range. However, folding fewer hands is not the only or best option. What you need to do is get to this spot with fewer marginal hands in the first place, which means not raising hands like this one on the flop.

Basically, my guess is that you are overvaluing protection, which is not generally a very important concept in deep-stacked NLHE. There are worse things than getting drawn out on or bluffed out of a small pot, and this hand is a good example of what can go wrong when you focus too much on protecting your hand rather than protecting your stack.

Avatar
rose
Playing Freerolls
Members
Forum Posts: 16
Member Since:
December 1, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
December 30, 2015 - 2:58 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
5

Thanks!

This was one of those “deer in the headlights” hands, where I knew this was going to turn out bad, but I did it anyway. I think the problem might have been that I had no idea where I was at in the hand, my opponent might have had an over pair to my 99. How do you find out where you’re at? I wonder if I should have 3bet preflop? I feel like that I would have had a better sense of his hand if I 3bet depending on his action after that. 

Yes, that looks like a real good flop for 99 so I raise, and he calls which only tells me he has a pretty good hand or draw, so the bet on the turn was a complete disaster. And the hand isn’t even over at that point. A check here would have been the best thing. Ugh. Then I’m thinking I have really got myself into a fine mess here and now I have to fold. I could have saved myself a lot of chips here. 

Was my first mistake, not 3 betting or is this a flatting/calling spot at this stage? Even if I do get a fairly good flop, like in the case here, I still have no idea how strong my opponent is.

Or is it a fold, which kind of seems wrong but maybe it is?

This hand was played so poorly on my part I just chose to fold and find a better spot to make a stand. I gave credit to my opponent for having a better hand. 

Since I posted last about getting exploited, I have made some calls I would not have made before with the winning hand and let me tell you, it has been frightening to make those calls. I certainly didn’t call off half my stack with a gutshot, but in other sketchy spots, I’ve made some good calls where I normally would have folded. 

My next post is going to be titled “How do I not lose my whole stack with 2nd set” which seems to be my latest trend in stellar plays.

Foucault

TPE Pro
Members
Forum Posts: 2067
Member Since:
December 6, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
December 30, 2015 - 3:32 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
1

More good questions. You really just need to let go of the idea of finding out “where you’re at”. I know it’s a common thing for people to worry about, but, as with a lot of the so-called wisdom passed around the poker world, it’s incorrect. Poker is a game of incomplete information. It’s about making the best decisions you can with the information you have. 

You have a lot of information, even at the moment that you are facing the flop bet. You know that your opponent raised in early position, which gives you some idea of what sorts of starting hands she could have and which she probably will not have. Then you see the flop, and get some very important information, which is that many of those starting hands, such as AK and AQ, did not make a pair. Then she bets, which may not give you much information, as betting most or all of her pre-flop range could be defensible here. 

Your job is not to figure out whether she has AK or AA. It’s to make the best decision you can given that she could have either. Folding is no good, because you are getting good odds to call. It’s OK to call and lose to AA sometimes, because you’re compensated by the times you beat AK and by the money already in the pot.

Raising is tempting, because it would be nice to make your opponent fold AK, but the downside is that if she has AA you are going to put in a lot of money drawing nearly dead. Not to mention that she might not fold the AK anyway and could end up bluffing you out in an inflated pot. 

That leaves calling. It’s got its own downsides – your opponent could draw out on you, or she could successfully bluff at a scare card even if it doesn’t improve her – but it’s still better than the other two options.

Again, poker isn’t about perfect information or perfect options. What happens too often is that people simply say “well if I call she might draw out on me” as though identifying the downside of a particular play is all it takes to rule out that option. You have to weigh the advantage and disadvantages of each option and find the one with the highest expected value. 

mykhalzyruskane
Small Stakes Grinder
Members
Forum Posts: 76
Member Since:
December 18, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
January 1, 2016 - 1:19 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Great insight and words of wisdom! I too have issues with middle pairs both tourneys and cash games. This has helped a lot! Thanks Rose for throwing it out there and Andrew for your answer!

Forum Timezone: America/New_York

Most Users Ever Online: 2780

Currently Online:
32 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

bennymacca: 2616

Foucault: 2067

folding_aces_pre_yo: 1133

praetor: 1033

theginger45: 924

P-aire 146: 832

Turbulence: 768

The Riceman: 731

duggs: 591

florianm1: 588

Newest Members:

Tillery999

sdmathis89

ne0x00

adrianvaida2525

Anteeater

Laggro

Forum Stats:

Groups: 4

Forums: 24

Topics: 12705

Posts: 75003

 

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 1063

Members: 12008

Moderators: 2

Admins: 5

Administrators: RonFezBuddy, Killingbird, Tournament Poker Edge Staff, ttwist, Carlos

Moderators: sitelock, sitelock_1