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Just got back home from playing DSO Malta where we start with 50k chips.
It´s a live tournament as you might understand, 550 euro buyin.
Blinds 200-400 Ante 50
Average stack around 59k
Passive table with alot of callingstations except player in BB who is a TAG with some clue of the game.
BB has 68k and I have 58k
I raise 5d 6d UTG to 950 and rest of table folds to BB that makes it 2100, I make it 5650 and he tanks a while and then clicks it back for a total of 9200, and at this point I think it´s fairly clear he has QQ+ but getting this good of a price and we still have ok stacks behind to get payed big if I flop gin, I call.
Pot is now 19.100
Flop comes 3d 4s 6c
He bets 13.500 and now I wanna know what you guys suggest we do ?
Do you fold, call, raise ? And please tell me why, and if you feel like it also tell your thoughts on the other options you do not make.
And If you feel like it, you can also comment on the preflop play, even though I have bitten my ballsack a bit for it already.
Looking forward to your comments.
Thanks
And if you need more information about something please just ask, freaky tired when posting so might miss some needed info.
Wow. Got yourself in a pickle here. If I calculated right you are getting about 2.5 to 1 or slightly better for a call on the flop. I think given the circumstances and your read that villian is TAG, he has KK or AA imo and is never folding and his 5bet pre proves this to me. At this point I am calling or folding on the flop. You have implied odds because you know you are getting his stack if you hit your straight, two pair, or back door flush. For that reason I think I am gonna call one time and give up if I dont improve on turn. If turn is diamond, giving you more outs on the river than I prob go with it. Any blank and I give up.
Only thing I dont like is if you blank you have lost half your stack on this hand but I guess you are still pretty deep compared to the blinds.
Thanks for the input, I am hoping more peeps respond with what they would do, but the forum seems to be very slow these days, I don´t know if this is since black friday or not, but it sure is sad to see.
I will wait a bit longer and post what I did.
Thanks again.
my nitty opinion is
i'd probably open fold pre
if i decide to raise, i'd fold to TAG's 3bet
if i decide to 4bet, i'd fold to TAG's 5bet
even so, after he 5bets we can probably flat in position knowing that if we flop hard we know we're getting paid
on this flop i dont think there is any value in raising as he's never folding… and to solidify this, if we turn 2 pair or a straight, he's never putting us on this anyway.
So we can safely assume that if we flat and hit we're getting paid off rather than jamming it in and risking our entire stack.
In summary i'd flat and given up on any blank turn
We still have 90bbs left if we miss also
July 3, 2010
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Once I get this flop I am not folding. He's only a 51% fav with AA here.
I'm not folding and I'm not calling. Calling reduces our FE to zero and if the Turn does happen to give us 2 pair or bring a 4 card straight it could really end the action.
I probably do something stupid like raise 80% of my stack just because I think it's funny to do it and some dolts will honestly fold to that instead of a shove when they see they have to be the last to raise and can never make you fold.
FkCoolers said:
Once I get this flop I am not folding. He's only a 51% fav with AA here.
I'm not folding and I'm not calling. Calling reduces our FE to zero and if the Turn does happen to give us 2 pair or bring a 4 card straight it could really end the action.
I probably do something stupid like raise 80% of my stack just because I think it's funny to do it and some dolts will honestly fold to that instead of a shove when they see they have to be the last to raise and can never make you fold.
You have no FE on the flop. He is not folding KK or AA on that board and has shown commitment.
Yeah i struggle to see that someone could put in 23k of their stack at 200/400 blinds and fold on that flop being 100% sure he's up against a set
The following played out…
I reraised all in and he thought for a minute or two and then called and asked if I had Aces, I answered “almost” and he thought we had a split when he showed his Kings.
The turn came a 5 and gave me 2 pair, and the river a 4, giving him a better two pair, sadly enough.
Next Q. IF I call, will he EVER fold KK when turn brings 3456 ?
I doubt it, since I think he is commited and could not give me anything that the 5 would help, pretty much.
My own thinking is that I´ll never will fold my hand once I have gotten to this flop and in a bloated pot like this.
Anyways, thanks for replies and thoughts.
Well when we call pre flop this is just about the very flop we want
However, the only reason i feel like calling is the better play here is that we could get away from our hand on the turn if we miss AND we get our chips in as a big favourite when we hit.
We actually have near perfect information here. I mean you said it yourself, and we all knew it before your last post that this guy has AA or KK so why not wait until we have the best hand before we commit our chips and save them when we arent?
I remember phil ivey once saying during a post hand interview that the one and only thing he was thinking was that he was 'trying to find a reason to fold!'
So i guess this is why i still like calling because like half the time a turn comes a blank we have a reason to fold.
I understand tourneyplay is all about survival, but just calling on flop here will kill your total eq in the hand if you plan to fold on a “non hit” turn, right ?
Will a call on the flop not be a bad play concidering you only have 13 outs and planning on calling only 1 street ?
And I am not sure I should write “bad” play, more see it as “losing” “flawed” “minus” play as I am still asking for opinions 🙂
Thanks
I don't really like the open. Yes, the table has been passive, but this just means you're playing the pot oop and it's harder to get your implied value when u hit vs a passive table. I REALLY hate your 4b here. You stated it's a passive table. I would much prefer to flat the 3b than 4b. PF after his 3b fold>call>>>4b. But once you do 4b and get 5b…think you have to call. I totally disagree with the poster saying that you go with this hand on flop. You still have 120bb's behind and getting it in here as a dog or a flip cannot be good. (Haven't run the numbers but the 4 and 2 rule puts us at bout 52% fave), and this just isn't enough this deep imo.
Leppo said:
I understand tourneyplay is all about survival, but just calling on flop here will kill your total eq in the hand if you plan to fold on a “non hit” turn, right ?
Will a call on the flop not be a bad play concidering you only have 13 outs and planning on calling only 1 street ?And I am not sure I should write “bad” play, more see it as “losing” “flawed” “minus” play as I am still asking for opinions 🙂
Thanks
I totally see what you are saying Leppo. However, jamming is a bad play when we have there range narrowed to two hands and know we have no fold equity as they are never folding given the action and the texture of the flop. So essentially you are gambling when you jam. That is the only reason I like a call, we know a jam is never gonna take it down and we are so so deep that we are still in decent shape if we survive. If we didnt have so much info on villians hand and his commitment to the pot then a jam would be the better play, but that is not the case.
hapetimes said:
However, the only reason i feel like calling is the better play here is that we could get away from our hand on the turn if we miss AND we get our chips in as a big favourite when we hit.
unless you have seen him / have read that he will make hero fold when stacks are deep the above is the answer.
However also agree with you leppo that we don't want to put in so many chips and fold to one blank on turn, so best option was to call 3bet pre and reel him in when we hit, give up when we miss and not spend too many chips doing it. he is TAG after all, why go crazy pre – its not like we is up against sean deeb innit? Also, table doesn't sound so tough, why go nuts?
hawkeyeK9 said:
I totally see what you are saying Leppo. However, jamming is a bad play when we have there range narrowed to two hands and know we have no fold equity as they are never folding given the action and the texture of the flop. So essentially you are gambling when you jam. That is the only reason I like a call, we know a jam is never gonna take it down and we are so so deep that we are still in decent shape if we survive. If we didnt have so much info on villians hand and his commitment to the pot then a jam would be the better play, but that is not the case.
Exactly, gamble when we are up against unpredictable LAG, play it safe even pre when we are against the TAG
Sorry to bite yer ballsack
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