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Overvaluing set, underbetting post-flop, early in Daily Deep Stack
joelshitshow
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July 10, 2016 - 10:28 pm
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I had a chat with the one-and-only Pierre about this hand after it busted me out, and I want some other opinions as well. Everyone put on your Andrew hat and let me have it, especially you, Andrew. That this happened 4 hours ago and I still remember the hand makes me think it’s worth a discussion.

$235 daily deep stack at Rio. Last hand of first level (25/50 blinds). Most stacks are near the starting 15K, I have 15,500. A new player is in Seat 9. This is his second hand, and he is in the big blind. I am in Seat 2 (UTG+2).

I’m dealt 99.

Two folds, and I open to 125. This is less than some opens in Level 1, but there’s already been one walk, and I want to be able to raise many hands pre. By only raising to 125, it lets me do this without bleeding away my stack. (I’m well aware of the strategy that says to raise more tightly pre-ante so your image lets you steal more blinds once antes start. Tables can break very quickly in the daily deep stack, so I discount this strategy for this specific tournament.)

There are 3 callers: MP1, CO, and the BB. The SB folded. 525 to the flop.

K98 rainbow.

The BB checks. I bet 225. I realize any of my V’s could have a straight draw, but I’m expecting a raise if they do, which I think is my first mistake. Unsophisticated players would just call with a straight draw. I don’t have a read on MP1 who sat down 10 minutes prior. The cutoff is a loose player splashing around in a lot of pots.

Anyway, all 3 V’s call. Even for a daily deep stack that’s a bit weird, but it could be because of my sizing. Anyway, 1425 to the turn.

The turn brings an offsuit 7. The board is now K987 with all 4 suits. I still have 99. (Do you hear the Thinking Poker voices when I write it that way? It was intentional.)

For some reason, I continue to think these 40% bets are a good idea with multiple people in the pot (because I wasn’t worried about flushes and never seem to expect people to have a straight). Despite the fact that I would expect at least one person to have a 10, because so many starting hands in their ranges will have a ten, I bet 625. The first 2 V’s call. The BB pauses, then check-raises to 6,000.

What I didn’t notice until JUST NOW as I type this is that this was a check-raise. Mentally I moved the dealer button to the dealer (because I rarely sit in seat 2 when I play live—I’m going to stop playing seat 4/5/6 in cash, that does it). So all of the following thought process erroneously comes from thinking this was a late-position raise.

Normally I fold here. It’s early. I have 14,575 behind if I fold. The daily deep stack structure sucks, but it’s not so awful I need to build a stack right now. But instead I think to myself, “What, does he have JT? Well, he could. But he could also have pair plus a straight draw, a set, two pair, etc.” And I think about how important it is to build a stack in a tournament whose structure will start having antes in an hour. If I don’t get another hand, I will be opening SnapShove on my phone and leaving it open for a while.

Calling makes no sense to me because if I don’t fill up on the river, am I going to call another bet? (Although, having 8K behind is still fine this early.) So I 3-bet shove to 15,200, and he snap calls with 56o. And when I look at how he played the hand, it makes sense. He had great odds pre and postflop, because I just gave him the implied odds he inferred by stacking off when his gutshot hit.

The river was a blank, and I was down to 375. Shoved Q8 and was out. But I got to visit the TPE booth for 45 minutes and shake @kevmath’s hand, so it wasn’t all bad.

Anyway, let me know your thoughts. I am having trouble centering myself because I have been knocked out of 3 tournaments for being too aggressive too early. I may be overreacting to previous years, when I played too passively and then had to play push-shove (without SnapShove, god forbid) until I busted. But 3 is also a small sample size.

It’s a journey. And I know I have to have these experiences to move on. But it sure sucks to experience these things when you play for 2 weeks and then go off for 50. Thanks, all.

Foucault

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July 10, 2016 - 11:39 pm
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IMO the central problems here are related to value targeting and hand reading. First, on the flop:

You are way too focused on the straight draws. Yes, they’re possible, but they really are not the most important factor in planning whether and how much to bet. You have, functionally, the nuts. It will still be functionally the nuts on many, though not all run outs. You should be thinking about how to get the most out of a K, not how to make sure nobody draws out on you.

Let me put it another way: there’s 525 in the pot in almost 15K in the effective stacks. So focus on maximizing how much of that 15K you can win, rather than protecting the 525. In this case that probably still means betting larger than you did. My objection is to your thought process, not your conclusion.

When you get called in three spots, you need to be more rigorous about what exactly people are calling with. No one is calling just because you bet “so small”. They are calling because they like the hands they hold given the prices they are getting. Would you expect them to call with 55? With 43s? I wouldn’t. Usually, when someone calls a bet, he has either a pair or a draw. Here, with multiple calls, both are probably out there.

Unfortunately, you get the worst card in the deck. If your opponents are loose enough preflop to play JTo, and they probably are, then there are 16 combinations of the nuts that are all very plausible. Your hand has gone way down in strength. That by itself isn’t proof that you did anything wrong, it might just be an unlucky turn card, but you need to recognize and accept that fact.

You should be checking and (probably) calling the turn. Here again I think you are too focused on draws and the danger of losing a still pretty-small pot rather than the danger of losing your entire stack, which is what you risk when you bet.

joelshitshow
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July 11, 2016 - 7:34 pm
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When I see your feedback and think about how I felt in the hand, I can see what’s going on.

I’ve learned how not to play scared, but I am still playing scared. This is exactly why I gave the thought process to go with the action.

Secondarily, there’s a difference between saying “I have to value target” and actually value targeting and making decisions that support it.

Finally, there’s a bit of fear of monsters under the bed that still remains, and I need to watch out for that. I got knocked out of a $1K two years ago because I didn’t see a flush on the board, and I think I overreact to that sometimes.

The whole point of being deep is that you can look for value and not take unnecessary risks. I’m continually playing 80BB stacks like they are 25BB stacks this month, which is pointless. I should play hypers if I am going to be stuck on that.

Thanks as always. This is going to help me with the rest of my series this week.

SIGABA
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July 14, 2016 - 12:28 am
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What’s up Joel!!!  Yeah Andrew said this far better than I could.  Ditto on that.  Just wanted to say hey and good luck!

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