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Full Tilt Poker MiniFTOPS Event #13 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t500/t1000 Blinds + t125 – 9 players
Above Avg Stack, close to or barely ITM. No stats on opponent, just moved to this table.
Hand Conversion courtesy of Tournament Poker Edge
BB: BB = 47.5, t47519
HERO (UTG): BB = 61.5, t61485
UTG+1: BB = 136.1, t136076
UTG+2: BB = 80.9, t80929
MP1: BB = 30.3, t30315
MP2: BB = 32.6, t32590
CO: BB = 84.0, t84040
BTN: BB = 29.4, t29369
SB: BB = 42.3, t42259
Pre Flop: (t2625) HERO is UTG with 8
8
HERO raises to t2000, 7 folds, BB calls t1000 Flop: (t5625) 5
2 3 (2 players)
BB checks, HERO bets t4000, BB raises to t8000, HERO ?????
Tough spot…A4 is a very strong candidate here, I think he calls or raises much larger with a flush draw. What pocket pairs does he flat preflop? 55 66 77 probably 99 maybe TT JJ, higher pairs he reraises. As played I assume we have to call here, check the turn and fold to a bet if we don't hit our set. If we hit our set I still think we have to play it slow and just get to showdown.
June 11, 2010
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Reads to me like your beat. The click back maneuver could be looking to get you to spaz out with an overpair on this board. With no information a lot of hands could be there. My guess is you are looking at a set that wants your overpair to tool out. I'd fold it, and move to the next one. You are still decently stacked and it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to spaz out on this since we are hoping to hit a 2 outer here.
Im not sure I agree we are beat here. Casey always says he never believes the min raise and why would this guy min raise OOP with any hand that was mentioned already? An over pair, a set or a straight are not locked hands to win, a flush draw doesnt min raise its flat or a huge raise/shove. So what is he doing this with? I think possibly air so that he can make a decent bet on the turn with a bunch of cards he can try to rep say any club or broadway card. I flat and evaluate the turn but Im not so inclined to let go yet as his bet makes no sense as to what he would be repping.
July 3, 2010
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You're deep. Getting it all in on this flop would be the absolute worst thing you can do.
Call and evaluate the turn. If he leads big just let it go. Your hand is not very strong at all here and you opened from UTG so if he's decent he knows that your range s/b tight and he's looking to milk you. He either has a set, strong/decent draw, or straight (low percentage of time) so you aren't looking too hot here.
With such a good structure the very last thing you should ever look to do in an event like this is play a large pot with marginal equity at best once you've managed to accumulate chips.
July 3, 2010
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As an aside, with all stacks being 30 bb+ you should not be simply min-raising your opens. You're giving good players such good implied odds to flat you in positon and own you post-flop. I also think your c-bet was too large.
FkCoolers said:
As an aside, with all stacks being 30 bb+ you should not be simply min-raising your opens. You're giving good players such good implied odds to flat you in positon and own you post-flop. I also think your c-bet was too large.
I raised mainly as a block to try to see a cheap flop and hope to hit a set. I'm not sure he folds with a 2.3-2.5x either. Point taken though, makes sense.
July 3, 2010
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I'm full 3x'ing at this table with my opens – curious to hear other opinions.
IFkCoolers said:
I'm full 3x'ing at this table with my opens – curious to hear other opinions.
I think this is a good point of discussion. The pros, especially BD 2x most of the time, however IMO this is not a good idea for less experience players who do not play as well after the flop. 2X is asking for action, if you can't handle it then 2.5 to 3X is better. And again IMO this larger raise does get “some” people to fold and reduce your action on the flop. I also think in micro MTTs weaker players look at 2X as weakness, creating many 3-bet situations from more aggressive players.
Sorry to the OP, this may be a hijack of his HH. Maybe we should start a new thread on this.
I think bet sizing does play a little role in this hand so it's not really a hijack. But yeah, i'm tring to lower my “old” raise sizes (usually 3x or pot) to a rare min but mostly 2.3-2.5…because that's what the pros say.
Even if I open limp here the situation is the same, if I 3x there is no guarantee some monkey in the BB won't still flat with any two. I think a bigger raise from UTG looks weaker than a small one.
I don't think the pf raise a big issue here…it is the spot presented on the flop.
Quote billbam: however IMO this is not a good idea for less experience players who do not play as well after the flop
Not less expierienced, play decently well after the flop…just sayin 
July 3, 2010
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It's all about the effective stacks at the table – it's the same reason why you'd 3X early in a standard mtt and gradually reduce your raise sizing looking for the smallest amount which will yield all folds.
You may be right that the bb still calls. You may not be right. The point is that if he's deciding to flat you with speculative hands you're charging more and making your stack easier to play at the same time.
Not alot of mtt'ers play well deep stacked so you want to mitigate your risk whenever possible.
June 11, 2010
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JDOG1645 said:
Im not sure I agree we are beat here. Casey always says he never believes the min raise and why would this guy min raise OOP with any hand that was mentioned already? An over pair, a set or a straight are not locked hands to win, a flush draw doesnt min raise its flat or a huge raise/shove. So what is he doing this with? I think possibly air so that he can make a decent bet on the turn with a bunch of cards he can try to rep say any club or broadway card. I flat and evaluate the turn but Im not so inclined to let go yet as his bet makes no sense as to what he would be repping.
I think that the min raise/donk lead may be completely non-believable at the stakes that Bigdog plays in, I disagree entirely at this level. With the number of micro players that satellited in or bought into this I think that you have to strip a lot of the deep thought out of things. If you get aggressive with this guy I think more often than not (probably 85-90% of the time you are going to find that you are drawing really slim and hoping for a miracle.
FkCoolers said:
It's all about the effective stacks at the table – it's the same reason why you'd 3X early in a standard mtt and gradually reduce your raise sizing looking for the smallest amount which will yield all folds.
You may be right that the bb still calls. You may not be right. The point is that if he's deciding to flat you with speculative hands you're charging more and making your stack easier to play at the same time.
Not alot of mtt'ers play well deep stacked so you want to mitigate your risk whenever possible.
I don't mind a call pf if I'm trying to hit a set, I don't really want everyone to fold.
My main question is should I have c-bet (if yes should it be more or less than I did) or check behind? Can I continue after the CR?
July 3, 2010
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Would you have min-raised AA, KK, and AK there? I'm speaking in general – not about 88. That's why I say min-raising is bad at this table. It gives people in late position excellent odds to call with stuff like 57s and destroy your stack when you can't fold an overpair (you being a generic term).
Anyways, I c-bet the flop since you raised from EP and are repping medium to big pairs on top of AK/AQ. If you don't c-bet and he leads the turn and river you're just calling hoping to be good.
As played I make my-bet 3200 which is about 55% pot and that only needs to work 1 out of every 3 times to be profitable.
The bigger you c-bet the more often it needs to work.
I guess I call the min-raise and evaluate but I don't have a good feeling about this hand already. I don't think folding can be called terrible.
You raise UTG and c-bet huge. He still raises. You're making your hand pretty transparent and still getting played back at. I'd be putting you on something like TT or JJ here.
My main question is should I have c-bet (if yes should it be more or less than I did) or check behind? Can I continue after the CR?
I think C-Betting is good here, size is too large IMO. I would have bet about 1/2 pot, I think this will give you the same info as a larger bet and helps keep the pot from getting too large.
lespaulgman said:
JDOG1645 said:
Im not sure I agree we are beat here. Casey always says he never believes the min raise and why would this guy min raise OOP with any hand that was mentioned already? An over pair, a set or a straight are not locked hands to win, a flush draw doesnt min raise its flat or a huge raise/shove. So what is he doing this with? I think possibly air so that he can make a decent bet on the turn with a bunch of cards he can try to rep say any club or broadway card. I flat and evaluate the turn but Im not so inclined to let go yet as his bet makes no sense as to what he would be repping.
I think that the min raise/donk lead may be completely non-believable at the stakes that Bigdog plays in, I disagree entirely at this level. With the number of micro players that satellited in or bought into this I think that you have to strip a lot of the deep thought out of things. If you get aggressive with this guy I think more often than not (probably 85-90% of the time you are going to find that you are drawing really slim and hoping for a miracle.
You do have a point about micro play.
Great advice guys…
Yeah I pretty much tooled out (as Wein calls it) and lost over half my stack. Still made a small cash. That is my biggest leak is being too agg when somone is showing strength.
FWIW he showed 6 4 o for the flopped str8.
lol 64…was it even suited???Muhahaha I would make a note on this guy about his hand range and that he min raises the nuts on a flop.
JDOG1645 said:
lol 64…was it even suited???Muhahaha I would make a note on this guy about his hand range and that he min raises the nuts on a flop.
not even suited…
July 3, 2010
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Deep stacked it's not really a bad call at all. 4625 in the middle and 1000 to call with 1000 already invested. A hand like 46 is simple to play. You either flop strong or you don't. And when you do flop strong against a UTG raise good things can happen.
That's what I was trying to get at in my posts … stop giving people huge implied odds to crush you post-flop. Maybe he calls if you 3X but at least you charge more and it's easier to play post-flop poker.
just curious, is it ever ok to play this hand slower being its just 88 and we're OOP? chk/call flop, re-evaluate turn. likely chk/folding turn when he 2 barrells but losing the minimum in the process. most good players are raising our c-bet on this flop and putting us in awful spots. we wont flop this bad all the time right, since he will be raising us with most of his air balls here, when are we ready to continue with the hand?
bjizz
FkCoolers said:
Deep stacked it's not really a bad call at all. 4625 in the middle and 1000 to call with 1000 already invested. A hand like 46 is simple to play. You either flop strong or you don't. And when you do flop strong against a UTG raise good things can happen.
That's what I was trying to get at in my posts … stop giving people huge implied odds to crush you post-flop. Maybe he calls if you 3X but at least you charge more and it's easier to play post-flop poker.
Wow I didnt catch that was the BB, I thought it was the button for some reason. So yeah min raising is bad and when he flats and gets aggro on a boards like this I alwasy expect two pair or some wierd straight.
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