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Poker Stars $3.00+$0.30 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t200/t400 Blinds + t50 – 6 players
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter
Hero (SB): BB = 46.9, t18750
nitrogen1983 (BB): BB = 12.2, t4896
Integr@las (UTG): BB = 23.3, t9308
ashfordgzz (MP): BB = 116.0, t46391
vagoneto (CO): BB = 40.7, t16273
LdSer (BTN): BB = 34.0, t13601
Pre Flop: (t900) Hero is SB with A
Q
1 fold, ashfordgzz raises to t2400, vagoneto calls t2400, 1 fold, Hero ???
Hello TPE members,
this is my first hand here so be kind 
. MP was active and agressive, but till this hand didn't raise more than 3x. We are in midstages of small stakes tournament. If we flat we will be OOP otf, so it's bad I assume, if we raise he can think this is light (I played LAG) and ship it in, than it's another difficult decision for me. What do you think about shoving here?
I would assign a lot of middle pairs and even up to KK plus AKo and Aks. even with this range (4.4% of hands, and note I am not including AA as he would most likely not increase his PF raise) AQs is a 40% to win, so I think its positive EV to 3bet here. The flatter might have Aces but his range is much wider. I am not so sure about shoving 46 BBs into 116 and 40 BBs. I would 3 bet to about 5500-6000 and if 4 bet I would fold. if flatted I would evaluate after flop action.
you are just too deep for a shove here even if it is succesful, you are most likely making worst hands fold and some pairs with which you are flipping or way behind will call you, as well as AK which dominates you. so shoving is not an option at all for me.
flatting to hit I dont like either against 2 players OOP.
A tight fold is the other alternaitve to 3 betting IMO. but my preference is the 3 bet and see if you can take it as you look so strong or at least slim the filed down to 2 players.
I know the play is just ridiculous by them but I am still folding here.
If he’s been 3xing as his standard then randomly 6x it to me it seems strong and I don’t think he will be folding to a raise. I don’t think flatting and playing a fairly bloated pot oop is a good idea also.
Best option for me in this spot would be just to pitch it pre.
You would be playing oop vs two ranges that generally crush your hand.
Do the folding thing and take a note of what the villains in the hand turn up with.
I think Pettman is spot on here. Would probably be more worried about the CO flat. Do you have any reads on the players?
If CO is fairly TAG, you are probably crushed or flipping at best.
I unfortunately didn't have PT3 turned on, but they both played pretty actively, there were also few 3b lights etc. I wasn't sure at all what 6x means, but I doubt they are 6xing QQ+ in general. Why would they? IMO this is often some hand which they didn't want to play postflop. I thought 6xer doesn't have a hand that calls and crushes me too often and also guy who flatted is not superstrong. I was sure he would 3bet QQ+ and AK as well probably. Do you have other experiences about these crazy 6xes? My thinking is maybe bad.
So I decided that fold is not an option and call is bad because I am OOP. Now I think 3bet/fold is probably better than shove because we are very deep and sometimes I will be wrong and it will be end for me, but I shoved because players in these stakes are often calling 3bets with marginal hands and it would be though for me to play OOP(against 2 players probably) and I also thought they probably will fold to my big shove and I will pick up plenty of free chips.
If i think they are able to be light here and call you down with crap like AT KQ then i would shove it in (if this is a 6max $3.30 tourney then i would assume so). Adding 15% to your stack if they fold and a good chance of doubling if you dominate them. Yeah 47bb is a lot to 3bet shove, but over a x6 and a flat + blinds antes, theres already over 14bb in there. if you 3bet a standard amount your stack/pot ratio on the flop will be almost 1:1, and you shouldn't be folding anyhow.
Shove or fold. I would fold without reads
MartinAltman said:
I doubt they are 6xing QQ+ in general. Why would they?
some people might do it at these stakes in order to get as much money in the middle as possible, people will call x6 opens regardless at these stakes. If they like their hand they will call preflop, x3 or x6 doesnt make a blind bit of difference to them.
October 6, 2010
Offline
in these WTF spots, i think it is almost always better to fold, especially when we have such a big stack
MartinAltman said:
“So I decided that fold is not an option and call is bad because I am OOP.”
Fold is an option, its always an option. Calling OOP isnt always bad, it is in this spot.
“Now I think 3bet/fold is probably better than shove because we are very deep. “
If you are going to 3 bet fold then it doesnt matter what two cards you have. if ur 3 bet is 3x then you are putting in 18bb to then fold to any further action (this isnt good)
“but I shoved because players in these stakes are often calling 3bets with marginal hands and it would be though for me to play OOP(against 2 players probably) and I also thought they probably will fold to my big shove and I will pick up plenty of free chips.”
Shoving 46bb (effective stack) to win 12bb, just not fun, mathmatically sensible and when you are called you've narrowed you villains range down so much that you are generally dead or very close to it.
Sorry.
flatting is not optimal and we're way too deep to shove
in my experience at low stakes, when players increase their raise size it is most of the time in direct correlation to their starting hand. Some times it's exactly as you think, a hand they dont want to play post flop (99-JJ) but i def have seen this with KK and AA b/c they're afraid of getting money in good and losing.
in this situation i fold also
So it seems I totally missread this hand. From my earlier experiences I thought they are not as strong as they actually were here. I saw lots of chips in the middle and pushed and it's my fault. 1st guy called me with KK and 2nd snapfolded. I was very surprised because I can't imagine the reason why they do it with monster. Probably for building pot while they don't realize it might scare other players. Now I would probably just fold in same situation, because we are very deep and if we don't fold then this is too high variance spot for us. Anyway thanks very much for your thoughts.
Yeah after looking at it again I think I was wrong in suggesting a 3 Bet to find out for almost a 3rd of my stack. you guys are right just fold it and move on to the next hand.
I find that in this low of a buy-in tourney, players don't really know how to raise properly preflop and when they are raising big, they have a strong hand. Whereas, with higher buy-ins, players raise less with stronger hands and more with weaker hands. This is my opinion anyway…something I've noticed.
October 6, 2010
Offline
HelpMeIWentBroke said:
I find that in this low of a buy-in tourney, players don't really know how to raise properly preflop and when they are raising big, they have a strong hand. Whereas, with higher buy-ins, players raise less with stronger hands and more with weaker hands. This is my opinion anyway…something I've noticed.
bennymacca said:
DO NOT change due to hand strength.
+1 .. reasons to vary raise size imo include position (sometimes I will raise smaller from EP) and stack size (raises tend to be larger with bigger stacks and smaller as your stack gets smaller).
+2 benny
lower buy'ins change raise/bet sizes more frequently
higher buy-in's and thinking players avoid giving off info this way and are more consistent
for eg – bigdog and the guys increase raise size bvb, they also decrease raise size given diff blinds and antes etc – but i dont believe i've EVER seen him change his raise size given hand strength in any of his videos
+++3 with benny always keep my open size the same with rags and premiums.
bennymacca said:
HelpMeIWentBroke said:
I find that in this low of a buy-in tourney, players don't really know how to raise properly preflop and when they are raising big, they have a strong hand. Whereas, with higher buy-ins, players raise less with stronger hands and more with weaker hands. This is my opinion anyway…something I've noticed.
wholeheartedly disagree with this, i think most thinking players keep their raise and bit sizes constant for given situations or board textures, and DO NOT change due to hand strength.
HelpMe has it right with first half of statement (obv villain not a thinking player), therefore we fold. Sometime we flipping, but mostly crushed.
im folding here and paying close attention to the rest of the hand for any info i can glean for later situations. agree with benny on the bet sizing too, Having consistent betting patterns is very important, since watching Bigdog play i keep my opens and Cbets very consistent and its quite remarkable the difference it makes. once people have seen you fold a couple of times after your standard Cbet they just seem to think thats your bluff bet amount and jam on you with all sorts of rubbish and we only need to have the goods a few times to make a big difference to our stack with minimal losses creating this image.
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