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Odd min raise and re-raise in to flush draw and made flush
MovieFX
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March 21, 2016 - 6:44 pm
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Hand Conversion Powered by WeakTight Poker Hand History Converter
No Limit Holdem Tournament PokerStars
8 Players
$2.00+$0.20

Blinds 75/150 8
UTG aniskiller 10,964
UTG+1 tatianaknyaz 5,342
MP1 Hero 6,010
MP2 rollingdrone 8,111
CO picks n1 5,545
D Dr.Tanga 6,777
SB lex omen 1,500
BB serge b 8,121

Preflop
8 385 Hero is MP1 A T
2 folds, Hero raises to 334, 1 fold, picks n1 calls 334, 2 folds, serge b calls 184
Flop
3 1,237 4 4 K
serge b bets 150, Hero calls 150, picks n1 raises to 450, serge b calls 300, Hero calls 300
Turn
3 2,587 A
serge b bets 150, Hero calls 150, picks n1 raises to 750, serge b calls 600, Hero calls 600
River
3 4,837 J
serge b bets 150, Hero calls 150, picks n1 raises to 2,793, serge folds, Hero folds
Final Pot 7,930

picks n1 wins 7,930 (net +3,583)
serge b lost 1,704
Hero lost 1,704

I’m posting this to hear what you all think of V1’s and V2’s line. No reads yet. Still pretty new to the table.

Here was my thinking and why I stayed in to the river.

On the flop
1. V1 makes a min bet which could mean anything, but I felt based on board texture that it was likely a draw or a 4
2. I call because of this, to see what V2 does and because I have an over and backdoor straight and flush draws and a min raise is a lot like a check in my book.
3. v2 raises to about 1/3 pot but it is also 3x the first raise and at these stakes the 3x may seem like a large raise to v2 rather than a small raise by pot-standards. V1 calls making my theory that he has a draw or 4 stronger. I call because I’m only paying 300 more in to a pot of 1837.

On the turn
1. V1 min bets again, making me think he has a flush and is trying to be trick about it.
2. Even so, I hit my Ace and it is cheap, so I call
3. V2 takes the same line but this time it is a more clear ~2/3 pot bet (just under).
4. This is where I start to get confused, but I call paying 600 in to a about ~4200. V2’s line kind of seems like he got there depending on how he is thinking about V1’s action. I mean, V2 raises in to what I think looks like a fish hoping to hit a flush draw.

On the river
1. V1 min raises again even though he was re-raised 2 times. I’m thinking that V1 is hoping to get raised for a 3rd time so he can jam.
2. I call hoping that V2 was bluffing the turn, thinks as I do that this looks trappy and just calls behind so I can see what the hell is going on here and maybe win with my pair of As 
3. V2 shoves and V1 folds. At this point it is a pretty easy fold for me.

I can’t imagine what V1 has, except for maybe a 4 that he tried to slow play for too long, or a weak K, and caught a bad turn. I have a very hard time believing that he wouldn’t have re-raised the flop though considering I was in the hand as well and getting a great price to call with any draws.

V2 makes a lot of sense as a flush with his sizing, but this was early in a large tourney and all sorts of weird stuff happens. His flop bet could have been strong in his mind (3x bigger than the last bet) if he is just clicking buttons. If he knew what he was doing he could have been building a pot with a draw, but the board is paired, so not sure how much credit I can give V2 either way.

I suppose V2 could have flopped a boat and was picking a really good max-value line if he thought one of us was on a flush draw. Note his SPR on the river. If he was really aiming for this, including a smallish flop bet that allowed draws to stick around, then it implies he was thinking about all 3 streets from the flop. Which would be impressive in my opinion.

Any thoughts on all of this? 

Foucault

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March 21, 2016 - 9:51 pm
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Not often correct to make such small bets relative to the pot, though it can be appealing exploitively when it causes fish to stick around, catch marginal hands, and then hang themselves 😉

Fold the turn, the second time. You’re right to be worried given the range you put V1 on, but calling the 150 is fine cuz your odds are so good. But when there’s a raise, now you need to worry. Why would V2 do this with a K? What else could he have that you are beating? You’re just drawing dead against too much.

florianm1
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March 22, 2016 - 6:42 am
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i dont get why we are calling flop

MovieFX
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March 22, 2016 - 12:13 pm
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florianm1 said
i dont get why we are calling flop

I ran through it in more detail, but in short:
1. V1 fish-donk-min-bet = check
2. V2 clicks back 3x for less than 1/3 pot, so, price, with over and back-door draws (cheap float to re-evaluate). Very possible there are no Ks. 4s less likely for v2, but in v1s range (but didn’t re-raise and fishes hate flushes). Could be medium pair and flush draw, for example.

I don’t mind a fold on the flop either though.
 

florianm1
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March 23, 2016 - 9:37 am
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MovieFX said

florianm1 said
i dont get why we are calling flop

I ran through it in more detail, but in short:
1. V1 fish-donk-min-bet = check
2. V2 clicks back 3x for less than 1/3 pot, so, price, with over and back-door draws (cheap float to re-evaluate). Very possible there are no Ks. 4s less likely for v2, but in v1s range (but didn’t re-raise and fishes hate flushes). Could be medium pair and flush draw, for example.

I don’t mind a fold on the flop either though.
 

i d be curious to know the ranges you assign them and if we have enough equity

and i would be even more curious to know why we fold river after making our hand (backdoor FD+2 overs) if we assume on flop we will be good making one of them

Foucault

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March 23, 2016 - 11:13 am
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if we assume on flop we will be good making one of them

When did we do that? If Hero calls the flop raise at all, which I agree is close, it’s because of the very good pot odds and the CHANCE that it will be good if he hits. Doesn’t mean you should ignore info your opponents give you later that the hand is not good. Also obviously the Ah is a less good Ace for us to hit…

florianm1
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March 23, 2016 - 11:40 am
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because it was stated elswhere we have one over, a backdoor straight draw and a backdoor flush draw. and yeah i realized i made a mistake by saying two overs in the earlier pot.

and yes andrew i agree on your post.

what i want to imply is that i believe calling on the flop and turn is the bigger mistake than just folding on the flop because of exactly what happened

so we call flop because of our backdoor draws we hit one of our perceived outs so we have to call again bc villain might be bluffing, giving up river or we can improve. Still we are folding on the river and invested quite some chips we could have easily saved.

especially at a stack size of 40BB which i think is by far the most crucial stack size in MTTs.

Foucault

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March 23, 2016 - 12:09 pm
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florianm1 said
because it was stated elswhere we have one over, a backdoor straight draw and a backdoor flush draw. and yeah i realized i made a mistake by saying two overs in the earlier pot.

and yes andrew i agree on your post.

what i want to imply is that i believe calling on the flop and turn is the bigger mistake than just folding on the flop because of exactly what happened

so we call flop because of our backdoor draws we hit one of our perceived outs so we have to call again bc villain might be bluffing, giving up river or we can improve. Still we are folding on the river and invested quite some chips we could have easily saved.

especially at a stack size of 40BB which i think is by far the most crucial stack size in MTTs.

You don’t “have to call”, you get to call, if you think it’s +EV. If you don’t, you’re allowed to fold, which is what I would do on the turn here. Hitting the Ace should never cost you EV. At worst you just fold and have 0EV.

MovieFX
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March 23, 2016 - 9:56 pm
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Yeah. Just to reiterate I could have folded at any time in this hand and been OK with it. It all seemed so close (which probably is reason enough to just let it go..probably a leak of mine).

The Aheart is a classic scare-card situation (for everyone except a made-flush/boat). my goal once that A hit was to get to showdown cheaply, depending on the action, which is what seemed to be happening/possible. The A may be good or bad for us, right? If someone has a 4 then it could slow down action and I lose the minimum. KQ with a Q of hearts may be double-barreling here or checking.

I also think a lot of people will check their flush once they see the Aheart and Kheart on the board as it does decrease the chance anyone is on a higher flush draw. This kind of also makes it nice to bet a flush draw for the same reason I suppose. 

I find ranging really difficult here since the action throughout is so odd. I think V2 probably played a flush or better really well and got max value. I have no idea what V1 had. Maybe a weak K?

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