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June 2, 2013
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Hello TPE!!!
This forum is very slow lately 
…
I have played this hand at the begining of the month, I remember I was crazy about wanting to call it ott and I add that to hands for review… but I am not sure anymore, I think a call will be a mistake for that kind of action.
Merge, $11 Buy-in (100/200 blinds, 20 ante) No Limit Hold’em Tournament, 9 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager – The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.
SB: 4,580 (22.9 bb)
BB: 17,553 (87.8 bb)
UTG+1: 4,290 (21.5 bb)
UTG+2: 3,765 (18.8 bb)
MP1: 12,739 (63.7 bb)
MP2: 14,230 (71.2 bb)
MP3: 8,794 (44 bb)
Hero (CO): 11,528 (57.6 bb)
BTN: 6,529 (32.6 bb)
Preflop: Hero is CO with K
K
4 folds, MP3 raises to 550, Hero raises to 1,234, BTN folds, SB calls 1,134, BB folds, MP3 calls 684
Flop: (4,082) T 7 A (3 players)
SB checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks
Turn: (4,082) 9
(3 players)
SB bets 3,326 and is all-in, MP3 calls 3,326, Hero?
Hero folds
River: (10,734) 5
(2 players, 1 is all-in)
Results: 10,734 pot
Final Board: T 7 A 9 5
SB showed K T and won 10,734 (6,154 net)
MP3 showed 8 9 and lost (-4,580 net)
Hero mucked K K and lost (-1,254 net)
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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Your starting point for any spot where you’re facing an all in should be to do some work with an equity calculator. If you want to show that work here, then people can comment on the ranges you assign.
Edit: Seems fine up to the turn. Maybe size the 3b slightly larger (1333, or 1337 if you really want to be cute) but that’s a minor point.
June 2, 2013
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Sorry not to add the ranges, but yesterday when I was calculating this I give Vs a lot of Ax, I will give the ranges I think now, and wait for comment on that, because I remember when I was playing I really wanted to call that turn
Open range for MP3: 22+,A2s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KJo+,QJo,JTo
Cold call for SB: QQ+,AQs+,KQs,AKo (because of his 23bb, I was confused on this super tight range, thoughts?)
OTF I think both will check to me Ax and flushes, so I don´t want to represent that A and get reraise by any they may have, Ax and combo draws.
OTT I think SB will shove a range like this: AdAs, AdAc, AsAc, KsKc, QdQh, QhQs, QhQc, AsKs, AcKc, AdQd, AsQs, AcQc, KsQs, KcQc, AdKs, AdKc, AsKc, AcKs
And MP3 will call with Ax, sets, and gutshot+flush draw (KQ, KJ and QJ with a heart): AdAs, AdAc, AsAc, TdTs, TdTc, TsTc, 9d9h, 9d9s, 9h9s, 7d7s, 7d7c, 7s7c, AsKs, AcKc, AdQd, AsQs, AcQc, AdJd, AsJs, AcJc, QhJh, AdTd, AsTs, AcTc, Ad9d, As9s, Ad7d, As7s, Ac7c, QJo, AdKs, AdKc, AsKc, AcKs, AdQh, AdQs, AdQc, AsQd, AsQh, AsQc, AcQd, AcQh, AcQs, AdJh, AdJs, AdJc, AsJd, AsJh, AsJc, AcJd, AcJh, AcJs, AdTs, AdTc, AsTd, AsTc, AcTd, AcTs, KsQh, KcQh, KsJh, KcJh
Against this ranges I am 25.28% to win. But I will have to reraise or call MP3 on river, i rather move all in on the turn instead of calling. Against MP3s range I am 37.89% to win
Considering this ranges, I am folding. But am I that wrong on this? Should this ranges be wider?
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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It seems like you are assuming SB shoves his whole range on turn? I wouldn’t expect to see QQ/KK in his range. Also, are you assuming MP checks entire range on flop?
“But I will have to reraise or call MP3 on river, i rather move all in on the turn instead of calling. “
I don’t see why this is true. If MP3 bets river and you don’t improve, it seems like an easy fold to me.
February 8, 2017
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I like a much bigger 3 bet preflop. Although MP3’s open is rather large, you still don’t accomplish much by going 2.25x. Assuming they won’t drastically under-realize their equity, villain has a great price to call with their entire opening range. I’d prefer something like 1600-1750. If you make it 8bb on 44bb effective you can still expect action from a lot of worse hands, and villain will probably 4bet some hands which would flat the smaller size. Although you will price out marginal calls, and it always feels bad when everyone folds to our 2nd nuts, picking up risk-free pots uncontested still has a lot of value with a hand as strong as KK. You also limit the ability of the remaining players to cold-call which means less awkward spots in multi-way pots. You will still get plenty of action from the better parts of villains’ ranges.
I like the flop check back and I think I’m sigh-calling on the turn. MP3 doesn’t bet every river, and you can expect to win unimproved at least some of the time. Considering the SPR, SB’s range will include some draws and made hands weaker than an Ace. MP3’s call is pretty scary, but we still have equity against every possible range, and we are getting > 3:1 on the call. There will be times when we are against a flush and a set, but even then we have 6 outs, and that is going to be pretty rare. We might get paid off by some hands in MP3’s range after improving, so there is also a (very) small amount of implied odds.
Just read your spoiler. I think we have to call, but I wouldn’t feel terrible about folding. Although I think it is a mistake, both opponents made much bigger mistakes. Flatting 6bb off a 23bb stack with KTo is ridiculous, I think the preflop range you gave is a little too tight, but more reasonable than expecting villain to show up with this hand. MP3’s call on the turn is equally bad, straight draws are pretty useless on monotone boards, and even if he expects to be doing well against SB, he can’t ignore our presence. Our hand is a pretty marginal call against less crazy ranges and, considering the nature of tournaments, it can’t be that bad to conserve your chips and look for lower variance spots.
TPE Pro
August 25, 2012
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I feel pretty uneasy about calling turn here. I think our equity versus two ranges is a lot less than we think it is – there are a lot of potential hands out there in both ranges that either reduce our equity by way of having flopped a set or two pair (meaning some of our flush outs are sometimes dead), or by blocking some hearts, either by way of having flopped a flush that’s already crushing us, or having a hand like AxQh that’s ahead of us and blocks a heart.
I see very few QhJx-type hands in either player’s range, since SB is unlikely to cold-flat those types of hands versus the 3-bet, so I think it’s reasonable to assume that we’re almost never actually ahead here. I think SB has more Ace-x hands than you’re giving them credit for, and fewer bluffs (would be shocked if they’re just ripping KcQc here very often on turn), while you’re also leaving out hands like T9s from MP’s range, and assuming they’ll call with a bunch of hands like KxJh which probably shouldn’t be calling.
Essentially, your assumption that you have 25% equity is really optimistic. I think calling turn with the intention of folding river to MP unimproved is fine if you believe you have the right equity – shoving turn would be suicidal – but I’m just not sure you do have that equity here.
I would probably also 3-bet bigger preflop, FWIW. Since you do have some flatting hands in the CO here, your 3-bet range becomes more polarized, and as such you can get away with 3-betting to something like 1400 or even as big as 1600.
June 2, 2013
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Foucault said
It seems like you are assuming SB shoves his whole range on turn? I wouldn’t expect to see QQ/KK in his range. Also, are you assuming MP checks entire range on flop?
Yeah, but that KK should not be there, my mistake, and only the QQs that has a in it. About the KQ I think he can shove those as a pure bluff, to me, his pre flop cold call is really scary; he can use that to balance his range(?), or maybe if this V is not that kind of thinking he can assume we are weak for cheking behind otf.
About the MP3, yes, I think he will check his entire range OTF, and check/fold, check/raise or check/call. Maybe he is shoving his AA pre flop, so I guess there is not that many hands he needs to protect and lead (TT and 77?), and may be scared with that SB cold call. What sort of range do you think MP3 is leading OTF? I never know what kind of range to give this leads, or when I should lead… I will work on that.
“But I will have to reraise or call MP3 on river, i rather move all in on the turn instead of calling. “
I don’t see why this is true. If MP3 bets river and you don’t improve, it seems like an easy fold to me.
theginger45 said
…I think calling turn with the intention of folding river to MP unimproved is fine if you believe you have the right equity – shoving turn would be suicidal – but I’m just not sure you do have that equity here. …
The more I think, the more I agree about calling turn and folding river, but what if MP3 decides to thin value bet?
DuckinDaDeck said
I like a much bigger 3 bet preflop. Although MP3’s open is rather large, …
I just realize MP3 didn´t mini raised pre flop
… not sure what is happening, I was thinking I was not making much sense writing and expressing my thoughts, and now this… sigh WTF 
August 17, 2017
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I like a bigger threebet preflop just because today’s players flat OOP much larger threebets, and I’d like to see you get more value here.
On the flop I often do a bet which isn’t easily qualified as for value or a bluff.
It does get value from T-X infrequently and JJ and QQ with a heart, but it’s also a pot controlling style bet.
Think about it. When was the last time you saw someone checkraise this flop on you without a flush or a set, assuming you play medium to low stakes tournaments?
Generally, they call your bet, check turn. This allows you to see all seven final cards if you are so inclined for a low price you set, which also may get you value.
Additionally, should you turn to your hand you will have a larger pot to build upon in order to draw value.
TPE Pro
August 25, 2012
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almofadinhas said
The more I think, the more I agree about calling turn and folding river, but what if MP3 decides to thin value bet?
Well, this is just one of the factors influencing our decision. If you think villain is thin value-betting river often enough that you can call river with second pair unimproved (very unlikely), then just call the river with second pair. If you think they’re only thin value-betting occasionally, recognize that it’s still likely to be a good fold, even though you’re sometimes folding the best hand.
Trying to cover every possible base at once and avoid ever folding the best hand or calling with a losing hand is unrealistic. Sometimes you’re going to call and be behind, and sometimes you’re going to fold a winner. EV is all that matters, and if your opponent’s frequency for betting river cards with hands worse than KK is high enough that it becomes a major part of the hand, the answer is simple – just don’t fold. 🙂
February 8, 2017
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Assassinato said
On the flop I often do a bet which isn’t easily qualified as for value or a bluff.
It does get value from T-X infrequently and JJ and QQ with a heart, but it’s also a pot controlling style bet.
Think about it. When was the last time you saw someone checkraise this flop on you without a flush or a set, assuming you play medium to low stakes tournaments?
Generally, they call your bet, check turn. This allows you to see all seven final cards if you are so inclined for a low price you set, which also may get you value.
Additionally, should you turn to your hand you will have a larger pot to build upon in order to draw value.
This is quite interesting to me, definitely not how I approach these spots but I like the reasoning a lot and will try working this in to see how it feels in game.
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