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October 3, 2013
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Early stages of a live NL tourney at Commerce Casino. $120 buy-in. Blinds are 50 / 100, pre Ante. Lots of limping at the table so far by other villians, playing quite loose. I've been playing TAG style.
Two Situations
1. I'm on the Button with 10's facing 5 limpers in front of me.
2. I'm in the SB with AQo facing 4 limpers in front of me.
What's the ideal raise size to take the pot right there or isolate? Do you limp behind to see a flop this stage of the tourney?
August 31, 2013
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probably iso raising both hands. About the sizing the standard rule is 3BB + 1BB by limpers but if stacks are really deep you can make x10 both hands.
I don't mind overlimping sometimes espcially if you think you have no FE preflop and you want to avoid a huge 5 way pot and keep the pot small preflop.
October 3, 2013
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Re: the sizing – once ante are in, i tend to min-raise to 2X – 2.25X when opening. Is it good to open 3X in the early stages to get most value out of good hands without the antes in the middle? or are you opening 3X pretty standard through the whole tourney? How deep of stacks would you consider for 10X? We usually start with 10K in chips, so 10X being 10% of my stack.
What i was most concerned with is raising to iso, but most coming along which makes it a huge pot to play this early. I want to see cheap flops mainly, otherwise 10s turn into trip mining when overlimping, etc.
Thanks for reply.
August 31, 2013
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About sizing it depends on stacks:
– In early stages, when stacks are really deep (>150BB) I'm raising 3 times the BB.
– In late stages when stacks are pretty short (< 50BB) I'm minraising
– Beetween both, my sizing decrease with stacks size (2.5BB 100BB deep, 2.2BB 75BB deep, etc…)
About the sizing of the isoraise it depends on a lot of factors (stack size, position, villain tendencies…) You have to make a sizing that gives you fold equity (so don't make x3BB) but you don't want to raise x25BB too. Raise a little more (+1BB imo) when you are OOP.
October 6, 2010
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i think its fine to just limp behind here, especially in a live tournament when you have almost no fold equity in this scenario and then have to play a big multiway pot.
online i iso 100% of the time but i think it depends on your perceived fold equity. if you dont think you have any then just limp behind. doesnt matter if you only iso with QQ+ here, its a live tourney people will still come along.
January 28, 2013
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Hand 1: I think iso'ing here or limping behind is both fine. In this spot, with this amount of limps and being early stages without antes I am more inclined to limp behind. If we do iso we are probably going to get into some sticky situations post on boards that are wet and/or have overcards. Being IP we can pot control and bluff catch, however early with no reads as of yet it is alot of speculation.
Hand 2: I like limping behind here, underrepping our hand. Playing AQ OOP to alot of people that are gonna call an iso isnt the most optimal play.
Both situations are gonna result in bloated pots. I think TT would be more of an iso than AQ because of positions but in these spots i'd be limping both.
September 24, 2013
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I agree with limping hand 1. In position, 10’s good hand and we could flop a monster and get a lot of value.
Hand 2 I am wondering what our plan is once we limp… Are we check folding all flops we miss, if we do hit and lead out into possibly 5 players this seems a strong, so if we are re-raised are we going with hand or we check raising? etc… Not sure we know where we are at… If we raise pre to say around 650 or so we may get rid of a couple of limpers, plus setting us up for a c-bet (on most flops) which may work a good % of the time. Just not sure playing AQos out of position in a limped pot 4 or 5 ways is best one, especially if we are playing TAG… Interested in thoughts…
January 28, 2013
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The only problem with iso'ing AQo in this spot is what Benny has said about low FE. If there are many villains that are still going to call our raise we are playing a bloated pot OOP against people we dont particularly have reads on yet (as its early stages). If we have just 2 callers preflop we dont even want to be cbetting a tonne of boards we miss postflop and OOP multiway.
It would have been handy for OP to note stack sizes at this level also.
September 24, 2013
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Very true… Do wonder how low FE would be though, however my ‘live’ tourney experience is somewhat minimal, and he does make the distinction that if he was playing online he would likely raise. So good to know the general play live pre-ante and no doubt pretty deep would be just to complete the blinds and no doubt play cautiously from there… Cheers…
January 28, 2013
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My live experience is very limited also so I can unfortunately not comment on this. Ive mostly played the buyin regional pub poker events and there are tonnes of limp/callers that cant let go of small Ax and generally really loose play.
How the games play would be somewhat determined on how players got into the event (amount of satellites) and the buyin level.
October 6, 2010
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with regards to limping early on in live tourneys, i think it is a generalisation that holds true from freeroll pub poker events, all the way up to 1k aussie millions events (which are typically full of lower buyin players taking shots, such as myself :D)
from what i have heard Australians suck at poker though so this might vary on a country by country basis, but i can definitely say it holds true for 1k/1.5k tournaments in both adelaide in melbourne.
hitflush, with regards to check folding AQ if we limp and miss, nothing wrong with this really, you have a decent hand but you are out of position with no pair in a multiway pot. i possibly wouldnt even isolate AK, at least some of the time i wouldnt.
June 11, 2012
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hmmm TT is really the border line hand here for me.
Depending on the track on my iphone currently running i am iso raising or over limping.
If i iso raise i make it generally big. Bigger then what is considered standard. I would say 4.5x+1 for every caller.
therefore we might get it HU.
hand 2 as we are OOP and AQo does not play that well i am more inclinded to iso raise.
And because i am OOP i make it bigger then in hand one. pob 5.5x+1for every limper.
in general in low limit live MTTs we should make our bets big. Postflop close to pot size or even >PSB if there is an OSD or FD out there.
Myself i remember a hand were i iso raised AA from the SB to 20x with 3 limpers. got caleld by two, bet pot on flop having an FD out there, 2.5PSB jammed turn no flush and got called bye one chasing his flush. live is so LOL.
so bet BBBBBBBBBBBBIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGGGGGG until you are in the >3k$ events (excluding the WSOP obv)
August 16, 2013
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I've played in a fair number of these low buy-in MTTs at both the Commerce and The Bike, and Bennymaca's point is spot-on: you have pretty much no fold equity because for the first few levels, these folks are there to see flops and gaaaaamboooooooollllll. So in the early stages you have to play super tight from early position – making the AQo a mandatory limp in the SB with the expectation that you're going to x/f a huge amount of the time and it's really not a big deal.
The TT hand is a more compelling case to raise because you're on the button and even though you're still pretty much set mining here (since calling ranges are going to include hands like J4s, K2s, basically anything soooooooted) there's some benefit in bloating the pot so that you can get more value when you do hit. What's more, you close the action and most likely these guys are going to check to you and you can then make a good c-betting decision based on flop texture – e.g., c-betting a rainbow-undercard flop, A-rag-rag, and of course sets, or check behind to get a freebie. All that said, overlimping here is not a mistake since your villains can be expected to play very straightforward, passively stationing their draws and medium strength hands (like top pair + shitty kicker or middle pair) and usually raising big with most monsters in a multiway pot. I'd just rather raise it up here to build a pot and make your set more worthwhile the times you do hit. That's not conventional wisdom, but the early stages of these live donkaments play very different than games filled with competent poker players.
October 21, 2012
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Stack size is so important here.
If I'm not deep stacked (like under 100bb maybe), I am willing to gamble here. I'd probably raise like 10-20x depending on how much I think will fold out everyone but one or two players. I'd expect to get called by mostly Ax, medium pairs, and suited broadways and I would probably shove a lot of boards on either the flop or turn. If I got out flopped or out drawn, I'd re-enter or play something else. No problem. If I win, I got a huge stack now and a great chance to win. Basically, I would just play live tournaments like a rebuy. If they wanna gamble with trash, I dont mind gambling with the top 5%.
If I am deep stacked (like over 100bb), I'd probably just limp and do a lot of smallish bet-folding on decent boards post flop being careful of reverse implied odds.
August 8, 2013
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Raise both for value, you aren't going to win the limpwar, and limping both these hands is just bad. If they are all sticky limpers, instead of raising 3bb+1x raise 5bb+1x. Worst case you pick up a ton of dead money. If people still want to call then fine, you have TT and AQ, easy to play. If you had AA are you still limping? No. KK? No. QQ? No. JJ? Maybe? Just raise and let the table know you are here to play, if they all fold you can start widening your raising range vs. limpers a bit knowing their 3bet is AA/KK etc. I would only limp small pairs and Axs looking to hit the nuts vs. the limpsquad.
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August 6, 2013
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1. I will be always raising here, I'm really don't want to play TT's in atleast 7 way pot. My standard raise there would be ~5-6x (With the stack size ~50bb+).
2. Raise this also, this time you are out of position so I would prefer little bit bigger sizing.
We are raising these two hands for value and punishing those limpers.
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October 6, 2010
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Would your answer change if you had exactly zero fold equity?
October 3, 2013
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I think in both of these situations, from what i have noticed…even when I have raised to 5-6X, i get a waterfall of callers from most who have limped, especially deep stacked in early rounds of tournaments.
So not sure if its better to 10X it or just overlimp to see how the board flops.
August 8, 2013
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poediddly said:
I think in both of these situations, from what i have noticed…even when I have raised to 5-6X, i get a waterfall of callers from most who have limped, especially deep stacked in early rounds of tournaments.
So not sure if its better to 10X it or just overlimp to see how the board flops.
You are raising for “value,” that means you want people to call you when you have the best hand. If you make it 8x and they call, then fine, they call. If you have AA you aren't going to limp right? When you have AA you are going to make the same raise right? Don't be scared if a bunch of weak players want to put their money in the pot bad, those are the same players that are going to flop an A when you flop a set of Tens and pay you off. Only way you create that situation is by being aggressive pre.
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