Thanks Foucault and Riar for your feedback much appreciated.

I guess one mistake might have been that I didn’t lead because I wanted to try and keep both villains in the pot or try to induce a bet from one or both. That being said, I know this board hits both of their calling ranges a high % of the time, but I wouldn’t put it past one of these guys folding a semi decent hand on the flop (such as a pair of jacks with a back door flush/straight draw). My thought process was if they had draws, that they are either four flushed at the flop or have an up and down straight draw. So my range on their hands is KcQc, KcJx, Kc10x, KcXx, KcXc, Kx9x, Ac10x, AcXc. Didn’t put him on pocket aces, kings, queens with one club because I feel he would’ve 3bet preflop even tho he originally open limped.

I realize that my check raise on the flop did give them good odds to call but i figured with these players on that wet of a board they are not going to continue with a bare jack or ten and quite possibly a queen even if it’s AQ. I felt as if these players were too afraid of the nuts and would worry as if I had a made hand. Once was wrong with the ensuing 2 consecutive stuffy bakers to follow my check raise.

Given my read and the table dynamic, I saw this as absolute strength being portrayed by both players. But at the same time, with their tight passive tendencies, I put them on medium preflop strength hands that have flopped a monster. Such as Kx9x, AcXc, or sets and 2 pairs. I think they are 100% of the time raising preflop with pocket pairs jacks+, A-10 suited +, and maybe KQ suited.
So I agree with you Foucault, I am never just calling the flop. I think that just leaves u too vulnerable on the turn if u brick.

This would’ve been a sick fold either way, being results orientated or not. Anyways, so I muck. The villain who first shoved all in after my check raise, rolls over his hand and shows Kx9x for the second nut straight. The second villain SHOCKINGLY only shows the Qc8x. I felt as if he was stronger than that.

Turn card comes King of diamonds.
Giving me at least a chop if I continued

River card comes 3 of clubs.
Would’ve been good game, later !! I’ve got heaps. Would’ve been sitting on about 43k at 200/400. Sigh

Markconckle,

To clarify, I wanted to check raise on the flop to get heads going to the turn. And I wanted to do that because these guys are “habitual limpers” so it is already tough to range them and on such a wet board, I thought it was plus ev to raise and try to get heads up to make the hand easier to play.
(And we all know if the hand is easier to play your gonna be more profitable hehe)

If your asking about why I didn’t try to raise preflop and just get the limpers to fold, then the answer is because I felt that a lot of the time since they already limped they will be calling a raise. So figured I’d save myself the chips and see the flop because I felt like my post flop game was better than there’s and scoop the pot post flop

“Respectfully” sir,

Isn’t it in the interest of “making money” to make the hand easier to play by raising to define your opponents ranges and getting a better idea of where they are trying to go with the hand a profitable play ? IMO, it is easier to range and try to play against only one opponent and set of cards instead of two, that way you aren’t trying to play a “guessing game.” If I truly wanted to just make the hand only easier to play without regard to winning the pot wouldn’t I just call and only try to give myself only one shot of winning the pot thru my cards ? Instead of trying to give myself another way to win the pot by raising ?

I’m sorry if u took my response as that I was only raising to make the hand easier to play, but that is not the case. I am trying to possibly isolate being just basic math that I have a better shot of being one hand instead of two, and I am also trying to build the pot for when I do hit my draws (which is even better if I get 2 callers). I did think of all of your very valid points you made about why it is good to get to heads up. For example, your reason #1, you say getting heads up makes it more likely for your bluffs to go through since u only have to get your bluff through one person. Wouldn’t u say that makes it “easier” to take down the pot with a bluff ? This is what I was thinking and maybe I was speaking too generally, for that I apologize.

And again, respectfully, how can u say that easy is not good ? Easy calls means you have the nuts, easy folds are easy ways to avoid trouble in pots, and usually tourneys that go “easy” for u (when u have one of those good days where ur running good and confident in all your decisions) lead to good results do u not agree ???

Fair points sir. And duly noted.

I agree with you hands down that in the long run yes it is better to have the added equity that comes with 2 callers. The pot is built more heavily and you are likely to get paid off for hitting your draws as his 2 pairs and sets might still pay us off. All I was trying to say was that in this hand as played, I didn’t want to be drawing against 2 hands when even I do make my hand I may not even have the nuts.

If a king comes any Ace gets there and my straight is no good, plus I that there a decent % of time where our club draw may not be good even though we do have blockers.

That being said, going with your feedback if we do get 2 callers of our 1975 check raise, what would be your optimal line if we brick the turn ?

Seems brutal to poss be check folding turn (if miss). Where as if we are heads up, a decent sized turn bet might get our opponent to fold. And if we get raised we can revaluate.

I would say in this spot, I would be LOVING getting 2 callers with KcXc. Having the 9 (idiot end) is what makes me more shaky, cuz felt that’s kings are for sure in their calling range.

Anticipating your feedback. As you can tell I’m more of a feel player and your way more math based I def like this convo. Good chat.

Thanks Foucault. Didn’t realize that you were the legend himself, Andrew Brokos, who was posting on our thread. So so awesome, gotta love TPE. Very interesting point that in certain situations, bluffing the turn into 2 players might be the better, easier play. I also agree that someone who thinks they have the best hand are flatting the flop, and therefore a good % of the time an over call on the flop means he or she is holding a drawing/non-made hand. Then, making your fired turn bullet look so much stronger. That being said, are we making the right fold (not being results orientated) because both villains shove after my flop check raise ??

Am also happy that this convo turned for the friendly. Was never trying to be unfriendly, just get very passionate when in “poker debates.” Was never trying to say i was right or anyone was wrong :).So Markconckle, if this is what you were trying to infer in our previous posts, props to you sir.

i completely agree, i too am not a big fan of check/raise folding in that spot. I hated letting that hand go, even when I was almost positive that at least one them was on a strong hand. Over the long run, and over a good sample size, I dont think check raise with a plan to fold is a good play. That being said, when I made the decision to check raise, I didnt expect to get jammed on by both villains.

On that note, lets say this hand/situation was in a bigger buy-in tournament with “presumably” more competent players. If I had the same hand with the same board, when I check raise does it always make my hand look like a draw ? As I know that sometimes some players have been known (myself included) to check raise in my spot with a set or maybe 2 pair. Also, do u feel most players are raising a flopped straight with no clubs especially since the pot is 3-way (such as the one villain in the hand) ?