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June 11, 2010
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Gents,
I was looking through the schedule for Mini FTOPs XIX and I noticed that the overwhelming majority of the No Limit Hold'em events appear to now be Multi Entry Tournaments. I have to say that I personally like the feature and have thus far been rewarded in it, but it does pose some interesting new questions about how to approach them from an optimal strategy and bankroll perspectives. I was wondering if you guys could comment a little on what you think it the best way to play them (load all 4 bullets, play 2) as I am sure a lot of members are going to be interested, given that playing the full on some of these is likely to mean a significant investment (both in time for BR building and buyin). Thanks!
— LPG
gman, no pro answer tough
personally I treat every ME-Event which i play with 4 runners like a single event, so if my ABI is around 15, I would not recommend to play 4 10+1 Bullelts. Because this would recommend a abi of around 44. I know it sounds a bit nitty, but if you cash theres a good chance to be still in the red with 4runners.
Yet this week delivers big prizepools and for the sake of shot taking at the 10+1 or 24+2 bigtds, I would take two runners for every event.
TPE Management
March 17, 2010
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The buyins <$26 are going to be very profitable for decent players, IE just about anyone who's learning here. Anything above that is going to be infested with regulars and much more difficult than normal. My typical buyins are between $11 – $75 with the occasional 109 and 162 and I am not really playing anything above 55 and only taking 2-4 bullets in the $55s. I am maxing out in the $26s though.
This week has gotten very expensive very fast. The prizes are big but the variance is too.
October 6, 2010
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we were talking about this in the chat room yesterday, and that was pretty much what we came up with – they will be great for the better players at the lower stakes, because you will get 4 shots at the big tourney rather than 1 shot at the big one plus 3 smaller tourneys, but the games will be tougher overall because the better players are more likely to buyin a higher amount of times
They take so much more time. I feel like I am playing way less tournies because I have 4 bullets in one event and it comsumes your screen quickly if you have 4 bullets in 3 events. I personally am not a fan of these thus far.
July 3, 2010
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Tomorrow you can enter up to 6 times. Lotta people going broke tomorrow.
Regstered 6 times for the $200000.00 gur and as soon as i did everything froze and i couldn't even get back on the site! Have no problem multitabling on ps. Anyone else have this problem? I normally don't play on ft and this just confirms why for me.
I'm still trying to decide what the best way to play MET's is. I fired a few shells at the big stuff yesterday cause it was so massive but like RFB I think for myself the most profitable is to max fire the $26's and also the $55's. A lot of the high stakes regs are maxing out the big buyin's and there really isn't as much edge for a midstakes player to be taking shots at the bigger stuff because it's so reg infested. These have just gotten started and double guarantees week screwed everything up as the prize pools were so bloated. I'm anxious to see how it affects things come FTOPS time.
June 11, 2010
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I agree with you on the FTOPS side Cougars. I think it is going to be very interesting to see how that shapes up. Could make for some interesting tourneys either heavy regs or light regs/heavy fish. I am interested to see if it will change tthe mini dynamic too, if it will be more attractive to ghe hs regs
I just picture being down to 3 tbls in an FTOPs event and checking the lobby to find that HITTHEPANDA is at all 3 tbls…lol
xxsosickxx said:
I just picture being down to 3 tbls in an FTOPs event and checking the lobby to find that HITTHEPANDA is at all 3 tbls…lol
then see the results:
9 people/table 6 people/table
1 HITTHEPANDA 1 HITTHEPANDA
. .
. .
10 HITTHEPANDA 7 HITTHEPANDA
. .
. .
19 HITTHEPANDA 13 HITTHEPANDA
I dont see how it maximizes your ev to multi-enter a tourney or have i missed something? For every regular tourney entry the best result you can hope for is 1st place and a big payday. If you multi enter a tourney and go deep in at least 2 of those entries, the best that you can hope for is a first and a final table bubble. That second entry that finishes 10th (or whatever) that might have finished top 3 in a regular tourney loses so much in ev that in the long run its gonna kill your roi.
I just dont like the idea of paying a buy-in and best case scenareo is that that buy-in only gets 10th. If im playing the MET's im treating it like a rebuy and only paying a second entry once the first is busted. There's so many tourneys starting every hour online anyway why would i play 4+ tables and only aim for 1 final table? seems ludicrous to me.
G0liath said:
If you multi enter a tourney and go deep in at least 2 of those entries, the best that you can hope for is a first and a final table bubble. That second entry that finishes 10th (or whatever) that might have finished top 3 in a regular tourney loses so much in ev that in the long run its gonna kill your roi.
I don't see how it's that black and white. There's also the case where you're hanging on w/ 18-26bbs on the FT bubble w/ 2 bullets that then get merged into one stack if someone busts. Saying your 2nd entry that finishes 10th might have gotten 3rd in a regular tourney has the same probablity of getting 10th as well in the regular tourney, does it not..?
Maybe my example is a big vague ytseshred
From a purely theoretical point of view, I dont see the point paying 3 or 4 entries for a single 1st prize when you can enter 3 or 4 entries into seperate tourneys for 3 or 4 first prizes. Short term it might not make a difference, but long run when you have been merged into the final table a few times your giving up so much potential ROI i don't believe it's worth it. IMO
June 11, 2010
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G0liath, I think you need to be a little careful with your analysis in the line of thinking you are pursueing. I agree if the tournaments that you are entering are all exactly equivalent the argument makes sense (i.e. I wouldn't see 4 buy ins to the Stars $11 Deep Stack as being more profitable than 4 entries to 4 other Stars $11 tourneys given nominal field sizes and prize pools). What makes the multi entry tourneys a bit more difficult to look at from a value analysis perspective is that the effect of the ME format essentially has a multiplying effect on the prize pool, so yes you could have 4 entries to first, but for a lot of these tourneys the 10th place and 1st place are > 4x normal wins for the same tourneys. I think the augementation that the ME format has makes the math a little harder because things become a lot more unpredictable, therefore making harder decisions on playing.
@G0liath no, your example wasn't vague, I definitely get your point but was just saying i don't think it's that clear cut for some cases that I mentioned. I guess I may agree with your first statement that “it doesn't max your EV”, but I would argue in the scenario I mentioned above it can increase your EV if you have an edge over the field like in the micros/lows.
really really hope multi-entry tourneys die.
although i think that OP overestimates how bad they are from an EV standpoint (sure you lose significant equity when you have two stacks merge at a FT, but you don't lose ALL the equity of the merged stack, as you do get the payout of the place the merged stack “busts,” and it's chips are added to the remaining stack), i still hate them.
i'm pretty convinced that very few players truly benefit from these tournaments. For the most part, fish are not the ones maxing out their entries, and even if they are, that's not necessarily good as they'll go broke faster.
if they are going to keep them, and run them during big events, i think that FTP needs to at least make some, if not all, satellites must-plays.
i'm sure gboro is psyched though.
I'm not a fan. I know it's psychological but I feel like it's a disadvantage if I satellite in and only have one entry versus other players with 4 entries.
The first hour almost plays like a rebuy. Players with multiple entries chase just about any draw. If they shove all-in and miss, who cares? They either have other entries or can buy anothe entry and start over. If they hit, then they have a double or triple stack.
Hagbard Celine said:
really really hope multi-entry tourneys die.
^^this. I was on the fence for a while, but after a few weeks of playing METs I'm completely sure that playing them is poor game selection. Originally I believed that only the $55s and up would play tougher. Not true. Look at the lobby for any standard FTP $26's- alll the regs max enter and the tourists take one shot. I set my mtt filter to exclude MET's.
the only upside to METs was during double gtd week I could play 4 tables of HORSE or 7 game and stay in the same game and level in all. That was great for mixed sessions. Those are no longer MET though.
sry obv noob poster here, cant quote properly.
November 8, 2010
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It was interesting listening to Shaun Deep talking about these with Mike and Adam on the 2p2 pokercast. He talked about how the recreational player was at such a huge disadvantage having the pros/regs buy-in 6 times, making it unlikely for a rec to finish in a top place and therefore over time, the recs would disappear, in turn making them less profitable for the regs. Bad for poker in general I think.
TPE Management
March 17, 2010
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philomilo said:
It was interesting listening to Shaun Deep talking about these with Mike and Adam on the 2p2 pokercast. He talked about how the recreational player was at such a huge disadvantage having the pros/regs buy-in 6 times, making it unlikely for a rec to finish in a top place and therefore over time, the recs would disappear, in turn making them less profitable for the regs. Bad for poker in general I think.
Agree 100%. We talked about this on the podcast and basically said the same thing.
They will encourage chip dumping as sometimes it's +$ev to dump a micro stack rather than to get it merged when ITM.
October 6, 2010
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Brandon said:
They will encourage chip dumping as sometimes it's +$ev to dump a micro stack rather than to get it merged when ITM.
Brandon said:
They will encourage chip dumping as sometimes it's +$ev to dump a micro stack rather than to get it merged when ITM.
i dont see how this makes any sense.
you mean people will dump their stacks to other players? for what, a percentage?
Hagbard Celine said:
Brandon said:
They will encourage chip dumping as sometimes it's +$ev to dump a micro stack rather than to get it merged when ITM.
i dont see how this makes any sense.
you mean people will dump their stacks to other players? for what, a percentage?
I haven't played any of these but don't you lose the money on one stack when two stacks ITM are merged ?
they are merged to ensure that you never have two stacks at the same table, so you can never dump to yourself.
and yes, you lose EV in that it's more valuable to have two stacks than one, but your merged stack is treated as though it busts out, so it is awarded the payout for the spot it “busts.”
Hagbard Celine said:
they are merged to ensure that you never have two stacks at the same table, so you can never dump to yourself.
and yes, you lose EV in that it's more valuable to have two stacks than one, but your merged stack is treated as though it busts out, so it is awarded the payout for the spot it “busts.”
OK fair enough i didn't realise you got paid when the stacks were merged. That sounds reasonably fair. My mistake.
So after reading all this I want to make sure I am reading this correctly.
So when your stacks merge, the stack that got dumped out takes the cash prize at the point of bust? I had no idea about this (assuming the answer is yes) at all, and just assumed you merge, and the busted stack is just finished period.
If you are buying multiple entries, should you be more aggressive than normal (and they say I am hypher-aggro as it is) an look at it as almost a step below being a rebuy? Or just play as normal?
Thanks!
TPE Management
March 17, 2010
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Play normal. Stack merging will be rare.
TPE Pro
TPE Management
July 20, 2010
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just looks like a ftp cash grab and also allows players to find out there in over there heads faster and then they drop down to lower level buyins that much quicker, poker relys on fish getting in over there heads and not knowing it, this style allows them to find out what buyin level they should be playing that much quicker putting less money into the game. fwiw i hate the concept
ttwist said:
“poker relys on fish getting in over there heads and not knowing it…”
This may be the single handily best statement I have ever heard in poker to
date!!!! A door opened up in my mind about the severe importance of BRM
now that may never be shut. Amazing…”When the student is ready,
the teacher will appear!” This statement is going to whirl through
my head for days and cause me to reanalyze my position about the whole
thing!!! In fact, it will probably be stuck in my head for life…
Thank you!!!
hey guys,
I have played the low/mid stakes ME MTTs or the past months and havent been merged once (played on an almost daily basis the 26$ KO 40k and sometimes the Midnight madness. From my point of view those are great bankroll builders since it gives you legitimate shots at big money and from momentarily upcoming players' perspective they are quite nice if you dont mind the variance in 3-6k players fields. I finaltabled 3 of them and had shots at 15k twice and even 30k during Double GTs week. Imo you dont have to worry about merging in those massive fields at all and can have a really high roi cause of field size and FT value. Thus i can only recommend playing them since they are there.
On a bigger scale i totally agree that they are really bad for Poker and make the mid/higher stakes a lot tougher. I played the 216$ 1,5mio GTD last sunday and my tables where dominated by regs, I think 6 HS MTT regs on starting table alone.
Didnt play the last FTOPS ME cause of it and think it lost most of its “shot-value”.
So even though I like to play them and they have been really good to me I think they should be banned as soon as possible especially from higher stakes. Dont mind it on 1$- 11$ mtts. maybe the 26$ is to much already to be ME on a daily basis which the 40k 26$ KO is atm.
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