post the chart so we can talk about them

 hawk – What do u mean? If I'm not mistaken, they are an essential tool of the trade.

mmfitter said:

 

 hawk – What do u mean? If I'm not mistaken, they are an essential tool of the trade.

Like Benny says, I dont think they do a whole lot. We learn to narrow ranges with experience then what is a profitable play after becomes natural imo. Everything in poker is so situational that I dont think shove charts are worth the time. It makes you think robotically instead of strategically. Just my opinion. I am sure some could benefit from them.

Idk guys – u may have opened a big can of worms here. I respectfully disagree with your opinion re shove charts. Not only do I think they are essential if your goal is to be the best tournament player u can be, I also think your opps that use them or have studied them, will have a big edge over u if u haven't. I think it's pretty much a fact that optimal unexploitable open shoves is one area in nlhe mtts that has been 'figured out' over the last few years. How many times have u heard that most good online players will blow away live players when it comes down to shove/fold time?

Now, talking about how to use them – how and when to make adjustments based on reads, stack sizes behind u, icm factors, etc, is a whole seperate discussion. The most skilled players will be making the best adjustments. And there's nothing 'robotic' about how they determine what the important adjustment factors are before they make their decision, even though they begin their analysis using push/fold charts.  But there are times when the most profitable play u can make  is 'blindly' open shoving according to what the chart says based on your stack size (or eff stack size) and position.

Let's say u have 15bbs in a mtt and you've been moved to a new table – u have no reads on anyone and it's 8 handed at 500/1000/100, 12 min levels – a decent online non-turbo structure. There are 40 pple left and they start paying at 36. i guess u can't say it's any old mtt because the buy in of the mtt is prob important to the scope of this discussion. Generally, experienced regs that play mid-hi stakes will be open shoving and re-shoving more optimally – wider than lower buy in and/or less experienced players when they have a stack of lets say 15-25 bbs. I think it's generally true that most players will be open shoving way too tight the first few times they get deep or semi-deep with an open shove stack in a mtt. The more experienced players learned what optimal open shoves are by studying good shove charts. So the buy in and the type of players that are on your table may be a couple of factors to help u decide wether to make adjustments to what the chart says or not.

Ok, let's say its' a small-midstakes online mtt and everyone has a slightly above average stack and you have the 15bbs at the level above – no reads on anyone. If it's folded around to you in mp and u are dealt JQs, KTo, 22-77, A3s or other hands like that. How would u know whether the shove would be a profitable one or not if u never refered to the charts?

Now let's say your stack is a little bigger and u have 18-22bbs and it's folded around to u and u are dealt AJo, 66-99, or QKo. U gotta decide whether the most profitable play is open shove, r/f, or r/c or fold.

The first thing u gotta do, I was taught, was refer to the charts and see whether it's a profitable open shove or not. If it is, then u know folding is a mistake and is not an option.

There are tools online and methods available to help u analyze what remaining options may be most profitable, but almost all of those tools begin with solid push/fold charts.

Would love to hear whether I'm off base here or not.

Hawk – I don't think it's possible to get to that level without them. And yeah, there are players that are alot more math orientated than others, but alot of those math equations involve variables

that are objective estimates based on the players' observations and reads. So it's not exactly straight math bec if your estimates are way off, the equation is going to be worthless.

And to be honest, imo – I don't think there is a single mtt pro on TPE, or any other online training site for that matter, that is not totally familiar with optimal push/fold play that all began with using the charts. And I know for a fact that some of the top rated online mtt'ers in the world, still have charts next to them to this day as they play.

Even Bigdog, who's def known as a 'feel' player and does alot of unconventional things, always talks about unexploitable shoves in his videos. He learned those shoves are so from the charts, right?

Interesting discussion, horses for courses.  I agree with Benny, re-range familiarisation and I also agree with mmfitter re-readless shoves.  It's also going to depend on whether your playing live or online. Non-exploitative HU Jam/Fold has indeed been 'solved' meaning that providing both players strictly abide to it then over the long run they will be on equal footing.  Check out this article looking at near-optimal strategies for 3 player NLHE….

…..AS2008.pdf

Although, this post doesn't contribute much to the 'debate' it does provide some interesting background to J/F theory and provide some insigt into the continued evoluiton of the game.