View Plans & Pricing

If you are signed in and are seeing this message, please be sure you have selected a user name in My Profile. The forum requires it.
A A A
Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 (0 votes) 
sp_TopicIcon
Monster Stack Hand
TightlyWound
Grinding Micros
Members
Forum Posts: 69
Member Since:
January 10, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
July 2, 2018 - 9:45 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

So I may have butchered this hand and I am looking for some feedback.  This hand transpires with a few minutes left in level 7 of the $1500 Monster Stack:

Blinds 200/400 and I have 18,500 utg +1:

I raise to 1100 with AcQd

Cut off calls and has approx 24K behind – solid player, I believe he is a pro but has not been getting out of line hardly at all.  Has been playing snug and only 3 bet that went to showdown he had AK.  We actually had a conversation about this earlier in the day because a guy 4 bet shoved on that hand with AJ.  We both agreed that is was a reckless play because of how tight he had been playing up to that point.

Flop is A86cdd.

I bet 2500.  Quite a bid bigger than I would normally bet, but the flop was pretty dynamic and figured there were a number of turns that I wouldn’t like so was ok with taking it down now and was going to make him pay to chase a draw.  He called.

Turn was 10c.  Not a great card but I was more concerned with the flush draw.  He may have looked me up with 97suited but it would have been a bit uncharacteristic of him.  I bet 6K.  He calls  At this point I think I have bloated the pot by overbetting both streets.  I think I am still good but really unsure of what he is flatting me with.  

Would definitely like feedback regarding the flop and turn bets.  Was trying to protect my hand but feel like I overcommitted myself.

River is a 2c.  I check he jams.  Does he have enough bluffs here to make it worth a call?

Avatar
Killingbird
Cary, NC

TPE Management
Forum Posts: 4582
Member Since:
April 6, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
July 2, 2018 - 4:48 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

tough spot. I agree we went a little too big on flop and turn which is kind of what gets us in this spot. I think based on the read that he has not gotten out of line, we can find a fold here. I’m just having trouble ranging him based on calling in the CO. 88, 66, A8s, A6s all seem logical. I dont think he would do this with any of his medium strength hands like Ax that is not two pair. or JJ or something like that. So its pretty much bluffs and hands that have us crushed. Missed diamonds make some sense, but as you said he has not gotten out of line so far so im going to lean more towards him having value than bluffs.

 

Interested to see what others think.

bigdogpckt5s

TPE Management
Members
Forum Posts: 363
Member Since:
August 7, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
July 3, 2018 - 10:53 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

This is a really tough spot. Although I agree with the sizing mistake complicating this hand. Although if he is truly a pro. He may know after your conversation just how good his image is with you. So he may be able to bluff with a shove here extremely profitably. Tough spot and read dependant. I can get behind a fold or a call. 

TightlyWound
Grinding Micros
Members
Forum Posts: 69
Member Since:
January 10, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
July 4, 2018 - 8:49 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

I think my sizing was the biggest problem on this hand and definitely put me in a blender when he jammed the river.  I tanked but eventually called.  He turned over 45cc.  As atrocious as my sizing was I think it should have been enough to get him to fold both the flop and turn turn.  I assume he knew I had an ace so he calls the flop with basically 4 outs and the turn with 12 at best.  If he was planning to bluff any diamond turns or rivers I guess it starts to make a little sense.

DuckinDaDeck
Hunting Max EV
Sunday Major
Members
Forum Posts: 284
Member Since:
February 8, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
July 5, 2018 - 1:09 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory
0

I’m assuming the suit order on flop is mixed up since there (hopefully) can’t be two Ac. I think the flop is the crucial street in this hand but I’ll start by looking at the river decision, which is pretty close in my eyes.

Arguments in favor of calling:  

– We are getting 3.2 : 1 on our call and only need to win 23.7% of the time to break even. If there are antes in play our odds are even better.

– We block the nut flush.

– Villain may fold many backdoor flush combos to our flop bet. If we assume that villain has few suited gappers worse than T8s in their preflop range, there may be only 2 gutshot + clubs combos on the flop, and the turn eliminates Tc9c. I find it hard to give villain many club combos beyond flopped pairs and KQs,KJs,QJs,54s –  and that’s only if villain flats CO with 54s at 46bb effective (which seems borderline at best). 

– Our probable range for bet/bet/check at this stack depth is heavily weighted to strong one pair hands. Villain can profitably overbluff to an insane degree if we don’t call some Ax combos.  

– With the turn adding gutshots to villain’s 8x and 76 suited connectors, there may be some low pairs in villain’s range that get turned into bluffs.

Arguments in favor of folding:

– A lot of busted flush draws are not possible with the Ace on board and our Qd.

– Villain may not reach the river with some of the bluff combos we would like to include in their range (due to our bet sizing).

– Unless villain is flatting quite a few suited gappers, or floating flop very wide like QJ/J9s with no backdoor FD, there are very few missed straights. As opposed to the pairs mentioned above, T9s seems too strong for villain to turn into a bluff.

– Strong players won’t typically raise very often when in position vs. a polarized range, and your sizing strongly suggests a polarized range. Villain is highly incentivized to slow-play monster hands when our range is bluffs and very strong hands, and villain doesn’t need to raise flop or turn for value if your bet sizing makes it easy to get stacks in play on the river. 

– Villain can comfortably shove any two pair for value vs our bet/bet/check range. Are we ever checking A6s+ on the river with less than a 1/2 pot bet in our stack?

 

This is not intended to cover all lines of thinking, but hopefully shows that a good argument can be made for either play. I’m not going to break down all the combos in villain’s range, but that may be a useful exercise if you want to exhaustively examine this hand.

If we ignore any reads on villain, my feeling is that we can’t fold all combos of AQ here. The Ac is arguably the best blocker in the deck, but it’s pretty bad to be holding the Qd. We block 1/2 of the missed Broadway flush draw combos.

I think AK-AJ are essentially the same hand for bluff-catching this river. If you want to call some but not all of those, maybe call with all combos that have a club as long as they don’t include a diamond.

 

More importantly than anything above:

As you pointed out, your flop sizing seems much too large. You are betting 89.3% of the pot if there are no antes, and even if the pot is more like 3300 it is still 75%. Your reasons for sizing up because of the board texture strike me as misguided on 3 levels. 

1) This flop is not very dynamic, on a scale of 1 to 10 (with 10 = most dynamic) I would rate it roughly 4. There are no overcards possible, so top pair will not change. There’s a flush draw, but both players should have less flush draws when the A of that suit is on the board. The 8 and 6 create some straight draws, but they don’t remotely connect with the Ace (A85 strikes me as more dynamic). Although both ranges (ie. likely UTG+1 open and CO flat ranges) do flop some gutshots, there are far fewer straight draws than it might seem. Context is important, I would consider this board more dynamic if this hand were BTN open vs BB defend.

2) No matter how large you bet (unless overbetting), you’re not going to price out strong draws at this stack depth. I think villain’s call with GSSD and backdoor flush draw is pretty standard because of implied odds (and potential bluff opportunities). Andrew talks about this in one of his recent videos (I think it’s part of the Deception series). I’ll butcher it if I try to repeat his ideas, but you can’t really pick a size to price out draws without pricing out a bunch of the hands that we want to extract value from. If you are ‘happy taking it down’ with AQ on this board you may need to work on eliminating loss aversion from your mental game.

3) Your hand is very strong but you’re rarely in good shape against a range that wants to play for stacks. You never want to consider your bets in isolation, but rather approach them like a chess player (ie. thinking many moves ahead). You want your flop bets to set up favorable turn situations, and likewise with turn bets for river situations. For example, when considering all possible turn cards, would you prefer to play this hand out of position on the turn with 14,900 behind and 7800 in the middle (1.9 SPR) or with 16,200 behind and 5200 in the middle (3.1 SPR)?

TightlyWound
Grinding Micros
Members
Forum Posts: 69
Member Since:
January 10, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
6
July 5, 2018 - 12:32 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Thanks for the detailed analysis Duckin.  I can’t argue with any or your points here.  One note, I actually got my hands backwards in my original post.  I had AdQc.  

I actually watched Andrew’s series on deception.  Over the past 2 years or so I have been much better at betting for value in the right spots.  I have to say this sizing is so uncharacteristic of my normal play.  There is no defending it though and I honestly can’t believe I took this approach here.  If anything I would say that I tend to be too little in a lot of spots like this.  I agree too that I am completely polarized in this spot so I have to assume villain is just waiting for an opportunity to try and blow me off the ace.  Ultimately I think I was going to be put in a very difficult spot on many rivers, he just happened to get there this time.

DuckinDaDeck
Hunting Max EV
Sunday Major
Members
Forum Posts: 284
Member Since:
February 8, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
7
July 5, 2018 - 4:07 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory
0

My pleasure TW. I can’t count the number of times I’ve made a play that seems logical in game, but is very hard to justify when looked at more closely. Most of these mistakes revolve around using weird bet sizing. To be honest, it’s an extremely rare session that I don’t butcher at least 3 hands, although I often don’t find them until post-game review (and probably miss more than I find).

It’s a bit frustrating to constantly witness myself making mistakes that wouldn’t happen if my thought process was more consistent. That being said, poker is complicated enough that I’ve learned to be charitable with myself. So much of the challenge for me is learning to play at least half as well in game as I do in study. I know I’m making progress but, when it comes to focus and consistency, it often seems to be two steps forward and then at least one step back.

Apparently it takes me 200 words to say “I make the same kind of mistakes.” 

kondor
Lighting Money On Fire
Members
Forum Posts: 30
Member Since:
April 2, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
8
July 7, 2018 - 2:45 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory
0

I am probably not the best poker player, and I have been away from MTT for a while, but I think something needs saying.

“was ok with taking it down now and was going to make him pay to chase a draw. He called.”

I bet enough to make him fold, he didn’t

“He calls At this point I think I have bloated the pot by overbetting both streets.”

I bet enough to make him fold again, he didn’t

“I think I am still good but really unsure of what he is flatting me with.”

I haven’t got the slightest clue what is going on

“I check he jams. Does he have enough bluffs here to make it worth a call?”

STOP…

Here is the problem, if you had bet enough for him to call twice, and then had checked to induce a bluff so you could call with top pair then it would not matter.  But you did not do that.  You bet twice to make him fold, and then checked I guess with the hope he would check behind.  At no time has this person done what you wanted him to do, and now you are asking if it is ok to double up by complete accident.  No, it is not ok. 

I am not saying be a nit and always fold top pair, what I am saying is, do it if you intended to do it, but if you intended for something else then don’t do it.

Put it this way… It is really hard to make people fold top pair.  In fact, if you do know how to make people fold top pair, especially if you can do it by calling big bets, then we are going to be rich because I reckon it would be a rare skill indeed.  So I am going to ask you to ask yourself a question, and be honest with yourself, no cheating… Can you remember the last time you intentionally tried to get someone to fold exactly top pair. If you have then it must have been one hell of a scary board, four to flush and a straight and a pair all at the same time, well maybe a touch weaker but not much weaker I am sure you will agree, you know what I am saying.

So, with that in mind, lets see if we can fudge some sort of rule.

If you have not got the slightest clue what your opponent has got and your opposition knows exactly what you have got, then it is probably a bad idea to go broke with top pair.

The reason for this is simple, it does not need ranges, or SPR or anything flash, it is just that making people fold top pair is bloody hard and as such people rarely try to make people fold top pair… ever.

So no mate, he ain’t got enough bluffs, unless you intended to induce them in which case well played.  But the way you played it, I think you had top pair and I think no one was surprised that you had it.  At no point did I think this story was going to end with you saying “I call, surprise mother lover, I got top pair, you never saw that coming now show me your bluff” and the story was never going to end that way because he knew you had an ace, all the time, and he knows it is hard for some people to fold one when it hits.  You can improve this, by folding them when you know that he knows that you have one if you do not have a clue what he has got.

TightlyWound
Grinding Micros
Members
Forum Posts: 69
Member Since:
January 10, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
9
July 7, 2018 - 9:06 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Lol, of course he knows I have the ace.  I don’t think that was ever questioned in my post.  I readily admit that I butchered the hand, especially with my sizing.  However many people, myself included, don’t want to go broke with one pair, especially in a WSOP event. I think villain gets this too. On this board I think he can be fairly balanced with both bluffs and value hands when he jams the river.  Ultimately he called with a gut shot on the flop and picked up more equity on the turn.  His play makes perfect sense if you factor in that he intends to bluff a number of rivers.

Forum Timezone: America/New_York

Most Users Ever Online: 2780

Currently Online:
15 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

bennymacca: 2616

Foucault: 2067

folding_aces_pre_yo: 1133

praetor: 1033

theginger45: 924

P-aire 146: 832

Turbulence: 768

The Riceman: 731

duggs: 591

florianm1: 588

Newest Members:

Gizmoo

Leprechaun76

SaltyDutchMan

sparky369

nonsquad

NoRizz

Forum Stats:

Groups: 4

Forums: 24

Topics: 12705

Posts: 75003

 

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 1063

Members: 11999

Moderators: 2

Admins: 5

Administrators: RonFezBuddy, Killingbird, Tournament Poker Edge Staff, ttwist, Carlos

Moderators: sitelock, sitelock_1