Home
(0 votes) 
November 4, 2013
Offline
Hi guys,
I realize that the decision about whether to just min raise open or do some kind of 2.X is several layers thick just like many decisions. Some of the factors I am familiar with and understand, such as: when we are just 30BB deep I think min raising is often better whereas when 50BB or deeper it's often better to go bigger because we have more chips behind and because it will get more folds when we want them, etc. (This is all post-antes by the way).
I think I also understand correctly that the cards we hold are NOT a factor.
One factor that I am particularly curious about is whether we want to get folds from the BB or not. I've heard pros and others say that they don't mind the BB calling in said situation because they get to play a flop with them in position (assuming we are not the SB) and often their range for defending is still weaker than our range, and probably our holding. But I've also heard it said, and feel it true, that sometimes we would really rather the BB fold because that's an automatic pot and we don't have to worry about being out flopped and all that. I could postulate that when the BB is very deep, we would rather him fold because he can cripple us easily, whereas if he has a vulnerable stack, it may be fine to see him call. Also I get the impression that if the BB is known to be a strong player, we might prefer him to fold whereas if he's a fish fillet, maybe we would prefer him calling OOP?
Or maybe I'm misunderstanding the whole concept, and the truth is that while maybe we don't mind the weak BB player calling, we'd still prefer it if he folds?
What other factors should we consider when deciding whether to min raise or 2.X?
Any thoughts are most appreciated. Have a good morning (or whatever time if day it is for you).
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
Offline
If you're talking about 2x vs 2.2x or something, I don't think it matters much at all, especially if you adjust your ranges accordingly (in other words, you have a slightly tighter range for making a slightly larger raise). You basically never want the BB to call you, because his call will never be a podt odds mistake, at least not if there are antes in the pot. Obviously larger raises will cause the BB to call less, but you can't make them with as many hands, and you lose more when you are called or re-raised by a player who has position on you. So all in all, most people have determined that smaller raises are preferable even though they give the BB enticing odds, especially because so many tournament players fold their BB way too much or play very badly post-flop if they do call. With a very good player in the BB, a somewhat larger raise with a somewhat stronger range may well be a good adjustment.
September 14, 2014
Offline
so basically if we know V on the bb is a good/solid opponent , its probably best to make our sizing pre a bit larger with our somewhat stronger range. Wont we get exploited by doing this?
February 20, 2015
Offline
If you're getting three-bet too often, even after narrowing your range, you probably should narrow your range further and hope to time it right. Otherwise, it's just a matter of time before you change tables (or he does).
There will be plenty of other hands in which someone else will be in the BB.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
Offline
folding_aces_pre_yo said:
so basically if we know V on the bb is a good/solid opponent , its probably best to make our sizing pre a bit larger with our somewhat stronger range. Wont we get exploited by doing this?
How would someone exploit this?
November 4, 2013
Offline
Thanks for the responses,
Yeah, 2x vs slightly larger is basically what I'm talking about. I'm happy to have it clarified that “being ok with” or “not minding” the BB calling does not imply that we like a call more than a fold preflop.
I in turn ask the same question about later streets. Say we are all over 30BB deep. When we believe we are slightly ahead of villain's range on the flop, what dictates whether it's better to keep them in the pot, continuing with their own reasonable equity, or to make them fold, awarding us the immediate pot?
Pocket pairs 55-TT opened by us with dry flops below QXX are an example. I realize these are situations where we don't have much of a draw and are unlikely to improve. Does this mean we should usually try to get villain to fold?
Combo draws are another example. We may be ahead of villain, but we may be behind – but either way we have a huge ability to improve. Does this mean we want to keep villain in the pot?
Situations like the one LondonAce posted here:
are also a pretty good example.
Hero probably has the best hand, but it's vulnerable. When the villain doesn't show aggression on the flop, and the turn is a brick that adds action to the board, even though I answered that he should bet turn, I struggle with the above question.
September 14, 2014
Offline
Foucault said:
How would someone exploit this?
Because with our weaker range we will be 2-xing it?
September 14, 2014
Offline
@derschwartz, this is a very intresting topic that you've brought up. I'll be honest though , i pretty much 2x pre almost always, unless i believe v on the bb is a fish and will call with worse , then you could exploit that and making it 3-4x pre. With our weaker range , like suited connectors , or hands as weak as K5s , i'd still raise , even though the fish will call , we get to play a hand IP vs an opponent thats bound to make a lot of mistakes post flop, this is a good outcome for us.
the question is now (and im not sure what the answer is to this) with our weaker range, or weaker value range, should we make it 3-4bb? or shall we make it 2x , vs the fish or vs a strong opponent? i also dont think balancing our range is important vs the fish.
November 4, 2013
Offline
If this is mid game or later, I would say not to raise that much against good players? I have not been opening for that much, except maybe between 2.3-3.3x from the SB.
I am thinking it was taught that we should probably open our whole starting range for the same amount? Otherwise I think that would end up being a tell vs good players.
Against weak players I would guess you could do it if you had reads on them. Otherwise I think opening a weak range for that much is risking too much.
I really don't know what I'm talking about, so take all that as a house made of straw, maybe sticks.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
Offline
Sorry, when I say 2.2x with a slightly stronger range, I don’t mean 2x with some hands and 2.2x with others. I mean that if you are 2xi’ing your whole range, you should be raising a few more hands than you would if you were 2.2x’ing your whole range. I think the difference between those two strategies is minimal.
September 14, 2014
Offline
lol im getting confused now , but yeah lets just do a example so we know “fully” understand this concept.
Hero BTN, with Q9s, our read is that bb is a fish , they call way to often and tend to spew post flop and stack off with air ect ect.
Now if we had a hand a hand that was in the top 8% we are probably going to make it 3bb pre or more , though with a hand like Q9s i'd make it 2bb pre. Even if the fish realises that we're raising more with our stronger hands and raising less with our weaker hands, there's not much he's going to do about it anyway! lol , though against a good opponent i'd just make it 2bb with both our stronger/weaker range. Or we may just decide to fold our weaker range on the button if we believe that villain on the bb will outplay us post flop even from OOP.
November 4, 2013
Offline
@der – the “raise the same with your entire range” was the outcome of a very old thread from the early days of 2+2 where guys were getting really in depth to pre flop raise sizing depending on hands. There was lots of theories, and it really was a great thread. I think you can still find it in an “anthology” thread. It was the basic “raise more with stronger hands” premise, which ultimately became very exploitable for obvious reasons. Lots of players still do this though. I'll do it vs good players, but usually it's to confuse them. I'll start raising slightly more with a range of AA/KK/TJs/98s for small example.
Sometimes it's ok to be unbalanced.
The key thing, which Foucault is alluding to, is that your opening range should be a function of your raise size, or vice versa. This is a huge leak a lot of weaker players have, mostly that they open way too tight of a range for a min raise. The entire design of the min raise is that it allows you to open so many more hands, which in turn allows you to play so many more boards because your range covers pretty much everything possible. If you want to play a super nitty range, it's advisable to raise larger pre, so you can get value from the few hands you do play.
@folding – If you are getting outplayed by guys in the BB OOP frequently, you have a much bigger issue than raise sizing preflop. I fully agree that having a very solid pre flop game is critical, but once I started to really work on my post flop play, my entire game took off. There was also a major leak in my pre flop ranges that I found once I started working on my post flop game.
Still, this has been an interesting thread!
TPE Pro
August 25, 2012
Offline
I think people really underestimate the impact of postflop play on preflop sizing. When we minraise, it's very difficult to create bigger pots for us to win if we have deep stacks, and it takes more bets to get it all-in with our stronger hands, as well as being slightly more difficult for us to put significant pressure on opponents with postflop bluffs.
Since so much of our profit in MTTs comes when we have AA (look at your Holdem Manager stats sorted by hand groupings if you're not sure), it makes sense to construct a strategy that allows us to get it all-in with our big hands more easily, while also not being so big as to drastically alter our opponents' preflop ranges and frequencies.
For this reason, I think changing your raise sizing according to stack sizes is necessary. If you're deeper-stacked, say 80bb+, going to 3x is perfectly reasonable. From there down, I recommend a sliding scale policy dependent on effective stacks – from say 60-80bb, you can 2.75x, then from 40-60bb you can 2.5x. From 25-40bb you 2.2x, and then under 25bb you minraise.
This strategy has worked well for me since I implemented it, and I have Holdem Manager numbers to back up the suggestion that it's more profitable. When you raise slightly bigger, it increases the size of the postflop pot exponentially, which results in a much bigger impact on our overall EVbb/100 than any slight changes in our opponents' preflop ranges which may occur as a side effect of our bigger sizing.
September 14, 2014
Offline
Nice post ginger , very nice actually.
I must say , when we mini raise it allows us to see more flops for a cheaper price and we don't have to risk as much with our weaker/marginal hands, so for that reason whether your 20bb deep or 500bb deep, mini raising is okay also there's going to be situations were weak players on the bb will fold to a mini raise anyway, so there's going to be spots were mini raising is profitable depending on your opponents tendencies.
I know you've metioned some draw backs to mini raising , for instance when we mini raise we fail to build a bigger pot with our stronger hands and its more difficult to bluff as the pot is rather small , though if we bet like half (or more) on the flop and bet 3 quarters on the turn and bet big on the river , its still effective and the effectiveness would depend on what we think villians range is and on how wide our bluffing range should be. We very well make a small bet on the river for only 1/3 of the pot if we think villians range is weak , which means our bluff only needs to suceed 25% of the time.
January 20, 2014
Offline
This is a little tangent but something I like to do when I get down to heads up is only do min raises to open on the button. It makes the game go a lot faster, usually the opponent starts to mirror you and do the same thing, and then you see more hands which is an advantage for you (assuming that you are better than him).
Most Users Ever Online: 2780
Currently Online:
64 Guest(s)
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
bennymacca: 2616
Foucault: 2067
folding_aces_pre_yo: 1133
praetor: 1033
theginger45: 924
P-aire 146: 832
Turbulence: 768
The Riceman: 731
duggs: 591
florianm1: 588
Newest Members:
Tillery999
sdmathis89
ne0x00
adrianvaida2525
Anteeater
Laggro
Forum Stats:
Groups: 4
Forums: 24
Topics: 12705
Posts: 75003
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1063
Members: 12008
Moderators: 2
Admins: 5
Administrators: RonFezBuddy, Killingbird, Tournament Poker Edge Staff, ttwist, Carlos
Moderators: sitelock, sitelock_1
