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June 1, 2012
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Been watching Mike's new series and saw his strategy of min raising from the get go and half pot when Cbetting. This seems like a great straightforward method to keep bet sizing the same etc without overthinking.
Mike was playing the big $11 this way in the vid and it was also working but I imaging that you would need to be a very good post player, as there would be heaps of callers as these stakes. Just wondering what everyone's thoughts are playing the min raise from the get go in micros? And also if it would be the right thing to try when still learning good post flop play?
Cheers.
July 20, 2012
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The reason for minraising is to allow you to take more shots at the blinds when looking to steal. In early stages your opens will more often be for value and so it makes sense to me for your opens to be bigger at those stages, trying to build a pot. Cbet sizing is a similar logic; at late stages they are about betting as small as you can to get the job done.
Obviously players like Mike Leah are very successful with minraising though, I'd say that you would need to be very confident post flop to use it well.
July 17, 2012
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You surely have to have a decent post flop game for this to be a +EV play, especially in early stages. You have to know where the fold button is and not get attached to premiums, as loose players, espcially in the blinds will feel like the are priced in with just about any two cards. I have had aces cracked by 23o doing this. One big advantage is that it can allow you to really widen your range and play a lot more hands early, if that is your style, but at a table that is very splashy (which I see a lot at the lower stakes), it can be pretty dangerous IMO.
I have found more success keeping my bet sizing PF in the early stages at 2.5x+ with premiums and avoiding more speculative hands unless I have a clear read and position. I feel like it allows you to range a little better when you are unfamiliar with the other players. If you haven't, watch Big Dog's HH review wins where he does exactly this. He plays tight in the early stages and 3-4x his PF raises until he has a stack to work with, then he starts lowering his bet sizing and opening up his game.
That said, I think it is a style thing. If you can take the variance and bad beats and like to see a lot of flops, you can build your stack early when you hit your hand. Just don't expect to out play a station when you don't. They will call you down with bottom pair or a draw and beat you on the river.
Good topic. I'm interested in hearing what others think.
October 6, 2010
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i think if you are ever going to get flatted rather than 3bet, min raising is a pretty bad move.
i think the advantages covered above are far outweighed by the fact that you can pretty much never get a full stack in for a complete double. even if it is AA vs KK preflop, you will either have to make your 4bet really big, or there will have to be like 7 bets to get full stacks in pre. the problem is only exacerbated at low stakes where you never get 3bet light in the early stages and you will get lots of flatters.
for those reasons i think 2.5-3xing pre ante is better low and mid stakes. i cant comment on the high stakes with tables full of regs because i am not one at those stakes
July 3, 2012
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I've been really debating this myself….tried it out this Sunday in my grind, and can def say I played a lot more multi-way flops. I honestly can't say I ended up seeing a ton more flops overall than I would have had I been 3x (early, pre-ante). In the micro to low stakes I think some of the callers would have been calling regardless of a 2x or 3x…..but what I did see is probably a lot more 3 way or 4 way flops.
On the positive side, and this goes to what Mike says, I did end up having people call me with hands that I dominate that they might/probably fold had I 3x'd. Someone said above they had AA cracked with this strategy with a player who called with 23o….while it sucks, I think that match up is one I would want all day long, even if it means getting sucked out on those rare times. However, if you 3x'd, maybe the 23o would never play and you lose value overall.
All in all, because I'm just not as super confident in my post-flop play (yet) as I would like, I think narrowing down the field is probably more important to myself (and likely most of us in the micro to low stakes grind) and will likely stick to 3x for the first couple of levels, moving to 2.5 X and then min-raising post antes.
July 8, 2012
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I find this interesting because I feel like min raising at all stages may give me room to work on two problems I have atm. One I need to work on opening my game I am a nit. 2 it would allow me to play more pots post flop and get better at that at a stake that I am used to playing. So i'll probably mess around with this for a few weeks and see what happens. gl at the tables
June 5, 2012
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bennymacca said:
i think if you are ever going to get flatted rather than 3bet, min raising is a pretty bad move.
i think the advantages covered above are far outweighed by the fact that you can pretty much never get a full stack in for a complete double. even if it is AA vs KK preflop, you will either have to make your 4bet really big, or there will have to be like 7 bets to get full stacks in pre. the problem is only exacerbated at low stakes where you never get 3bet light in the early stages and you will get lots of flatters.
for those reasons i think 2.5-3xing pre ante is better low and mid stakes. i cant comment on the high stakes with tables full of regs because i am not one at those stakes
This.
I think this is less important in bigger tournaments with deeper stacks and slower structures, but at most low/micro tourneys, where you're getting about an orbit a level, its pretty important to have the ability to play for stacks IMO.
July 12, 2012
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I started using the min raise and seen a few advantages. One was already mentioned in that it allows for cheaper steal opportunities more often. And while it didn't open up my range that much, it allowed me to get away from spec hands for fewer chips. Using the min raise and the HUD gives me inside info that I'm not getting 3-bet light from a nit or rock. If I do get 3-bet with a premium hand, I can 4-bet bigger or shove with confidence. The temptation is to want to raise bigger with 7s-Js or even QQ. But consistent min raises hide the strength of my hand.
Generally a half pot bet is what I c-bet with but I've been experimenting with the delayed c-bet but I hate giving free cards especially on a draw heavy board. I also have to remember to not c-bet every time I raise a pot which is difficult to do because I love uncontested chips and would rather take the pot down than risk a showdown.
"…if he fails, he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."-Teddy Roosevelt
October 6, 2010
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Consistent 3x sizing also hides the strength of your hand Dead7s
July 12, 2012
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any consistent raising will hide the strenghth of your hand. But if I can min raise why pay the extra BB? I'm not saying your strategy is wrong. I've used the 3x guideline and it plugged a big hole in my game. Now the other hole is polarizing my range. I just can't bring myself to play unplayable cards, but if I could overcome that mental hurdle (which doesn't seem like that big of a deal) I think it could really take my game up a notch. Not sure how to find a spot where open raising or 3-betting with 84o is a good idea though. I also think staying disciplined with my opening ranges and raising ranges has made a difference.
"…if he fails, he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."-Teddy Roosevelt
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