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Mid stages, bluff spot...terrible?
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FloppedBackdoorTrips
Wooster, OH
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June 19, 2012 - 9:03 pm
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Okay guys – I’ve been bubbling a ton of tournaments over the past few weeks, and self-diagnosed that the problem was being too tight during the middle stages.  So I decided to do some experimenting, and this hand came up.  At the time it felt retardedly spewy, but when I went back and reviewed I couldn’t find the point of the hand where my thought process was wrong.  Preflop is obviously speculative, but did I just get unlucky?

 

Don’t have any specific reads on villain, but I always OPR my entire table and knew that he was a weaker player, but not maniacal.

 

Thoughts by street…

 

Preflop:  I thought his stack size was awkward, and that he would therefore be playing pretty straightforward postflop.  The call was mostly looking for a good flop to make a move and take it away, or perhaps actually hit the flop.  I thought the combination of those two things made it high variance, but +EV.

 

Flop: I thought this was a great flop to go for a check/minraise.  The part of his range that likes that flop is QQ+, AQ, 99, and possibly KQ (but yay, blockers).  When weighted against his opening range, I thought I’d be getting a lot of folds.  At the time I didn’t put much thought into his small CB, since its going to be stuff like Ax a lot just trying to get a good price on a CB.  Perhaps it should have set off my spidey-sense, but considering my raise only had to work like 30% to be break even, I thought it was a really juicy spot.  Plus, we have a backdoor flush draw and some backdoor straight draws, so I also thought I’d be able to continue my bluff a lot.

 

Turn: His call was worrisome, but I didn’t think it necessarily meant he was committed.  The turn is obviously great, since I now have a flush draw+a gutshot straight draw.  At the time I didn’t think there was any other play other than just shoving it in, and I felt silly when he snap called and flipped over essentially the nuts.

 

But I went back and did the math, and worst case scenario, I’m a 3:1 dog against his calling range.  So he only needs to fold 3% of the time for the shove to be break even.

 

Merge Network $1,250 Guaranteed Freezeout No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t125.00/t250.00 Blinds + t25.00 - 8 players - View hand 1800962
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

UTG+1: t3766.00 M = 6.55
MP1: t20277.00		 M = 35.26
MP2: t2063.00		 M = 3.59
CO: t8275.00		 M = 14.39
BTN: t1838.00		 M = 3.20
SB: t7460.00		 M = 12.97
Hero (BB): t6106.00		 M = 10.62
UTG: t4517.00		 M = 7.86

Pre Flop: (t575) Hero is BB with 8 
club
 K 
club
1 fold, [color=red]UTG+1 raises to t662.00[/color], 5 folds, Hero calls t412

Flop: (t1649) 9 
club
 5 
diamond
 Q 
heart
 [color=#336633](2 players)[/color]
Hero checks, [color=red]UTG+1 bets t500.00[/color], [color=red]Hero raises to t1000.00[/color], UTG+1 calls t500

Turn: (t3649) J 
club
 [color=#336633](2 players)[/color]
[color=red]Hero bets t2432.00[/color], UTG+1 calls t2104 all in

River: (t7857) 4 
spade
 [color=#336633](2 players - 1 is all in)[/color]
 
 
I'd love to hear what you guys think.
And perhaps what you look for when making moves in the middle/awkward stages of tournaments.
emufart
New Zealand
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June 19, 2012 - 9:21 pm
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Flat pre is pretty bad IMO, you're only 14bbs deep effective. I like your idea in general that if you're going to defend here, then you're doing it with the intention of making some moves post. Only problem is that your just too shallow to be able to make many moves postflop. The Jc on the turn is pretty much the best possible turn card for your hand, so shipping the turn is super standard/pretty easy in this spot. But I wonder what was your plan if the turn had been a complete brick like the 3s though? Your opponent has less than a pot sized bet left, so any bet would be committing/spewy, Yet he can stil conceivably have a hand that got stubborn on the flop like AK, 98s, that may fold to a turn bet now. 
If you want to make these sorts of plays, (and I would encourage you to do so,) I would suggest reserving it for situations where you are much deeper, giving you more room to move so that you can actually continue your bluff on the turn and/or river if you feel the situation warrents it.

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FloppedBackdoorTrips
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June 20, 2012 - 12:24 am
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Formatting is a little weird, but I think I get the gist of your post.

 

I agree that stacks were a little too short here.

Probably should have ~20BB effective to make this move.

 

My plan was to just give up if I bricked turn.

But with that in mind, I probably should've gone slightly bigger flop.

Even 1.1K instead of just minraise to 1K would be better if I'm not barrelling.

 

But yeah, preflop was likely a mistake.

pokerkids
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June 20, 2012 - 3:25 am
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Right, we should never be flatting here preflop. If he is at all competent then his range is crushing k8cc, and even if he is more fishy he probably isn't looking to fold all that often when raising a 15bb stack utg+1. If I'm him I'm raising like 1010+ and aq/ak to induce, and shoving whatever else I want to get in the middle. Even if he had like 30bb, I really don't like a flat here. It's going to be -ev in the long run, and we have reverse implied odds since our king is always dominated. I would always be raising this hand in later positon, but im not inclined to call a raise with it especially oop against a shorty.

There ARE different ways we can “make moves” and accummulate stacks in the middle stages of a tourney. One, would be to widen our raising range (especially in late position) to steal the blinds more often. It helps us pick up the dead money in the pot, while also building our image for when we do pick up big hands. Another would be to pick some spots to 3 bet light. Best oppenents to 3 bet are ones that will either just fold pre, or call and play fit/fold post. Don't worry if your 3 bets don't seem to be working much at first. These spots will become more apparent the more tourneys you play. 

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