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Merge $33 Sunday Deepstack, Early Stages, Facing a 4 bet
MNPuck
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April 30, 2012 - 12:03 am
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Still early in the tournament, facing a 4 bet from villain.  The villain is 21/12 with 25% 3 bet(3/12) over 33 hands.  He seems to like to mix it up pre, and has 3 bet me twice already.  Don't think this is a good spot for me to flat(although it works here), but would like to hear what others think.

 

 Merge Network Sunday Deepstack Freezeout – $20,000 Guaranteed No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t30.00/t60.00 Blinds – 8 players

TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter

Coolerful (SB): t11176.00 186.27 BBs
Dean82 (BB): t6064.00 101.07 BBs
rthuei (UTG): t4840.00 80.67 BBs
goodsharks (UTG+1): t4660.00 77.67 BBs
ssebekkHP (MP1): t4670.00 77.83 BBs
CameronPoe (MP2): t4920.00 82 BBs
MyNinjaDream (CO): t5000.00 83.33 BBs
Hero (BTN): t3620.00 60.33 BBs

Pre Flop: (t90) Hero is BTN with T of spades T of diamonds
4 folds, MyNinjaDream raises to t120.00, Hero raises to t300.00, Coolerful raises to t760.00, 2 folds, Hero calls t460

Flop: (t1700) 6 of spades 4 of clubs Q of clubs (2 players)
Coolerful checks, Hero bets t850.00, Coolerful folds

Donskey
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April 30, 2012 - 8:14 am
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Being this deep I probably flat the original raiser, that being said, I think your 3 bet is also fine, flatting can get you into a multiway pot and unless you smash the flop will be hard to play TT multiway.

After the 4 bet, which was not that much then you are obviously not folding, either 5 bet or flat, and again I think flatting being this deep is probably the best play especially when you will be in position. Let's see a flop and evaluate.

Nice aggressive post flop play and you take the pot. Don't see any problems with your play. We'll see what others say.

hawkeyeK9
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April 30, 2012 - 10:35 am
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I also just flat original raiser pre at this stage of the tournament. Everyone has their own style though. As played I prob fold to the 4bet, dont think we can be results oriented here because it worked this time. Feel you are wasting chips by flatting if you are gonna fold to most flops he cbets and when he does check, you are wasting chips by betting close to half pot when he is gonna check/raise a majority of the time and you will just bet/fold. So thinking about one stab at it worked this time but think it happens very small percentage of the time.

badabing78
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April 30, 2012 - 11:58 am
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that early in the tourney i'd also prefer flatting OR

but as played I would have no problem 5b getting it in against an active opponent like he is.

MNPuck
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May 1, 2012 - 3:47 pm
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thx guys, hadn’t really thought about just flatting the original raiser.  Don’t have the numbers here but think he was opening at like 17% or something.  Still I like that flat this deep.

 

As played by 3 betting the original raiser, I don’t like my flat of the 4 bet with 1010.  With a stronger hand I think it might be ok.  The problem is that almost all boards will look scary by containing 1/2/3 overs.  Often the 4 better will fire here as he has intiative and I’m put in a tough spot.  Very odd he didn’t bet in this particular hand.

 

I really think I should have 5 bet him after his 4 bet.

rivermen123
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May 1, 2012 - 5:28 pm
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hawkeyeK9 said:

I also just flat original raiser pre at this stage of the tournament. Everyone has their own style though. As played I prob fold to the 4bet, dont think we can be results oriented here because it worked this time. Feel you are wasting chips by flatting if you are gonna fold to most flops he cbets and when he does check, you are wasting chips by betting close to half pot when he is gonna check/raise a majority of the time and you will just bet/fold. So thinking about one stab at it worked this time but think it happens very small percentage of the time.

Fold pre? Seriously?

Van H3Lzing
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May 1, 2012 - 6:46 pm
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flat pre for sure. early stages, deep stacked etc

isaacjames
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May 1, 2012 - 7:07 pm
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I also prefer flatting the raise to 3betting this deep and IP.  if you are going to 3bet w TTs fine but you need to 3bet a wide enough range (maybe 8-12%) that you are not predictable, so some trash hands need to be in your range or at least some marginal hands you would be folding otherwise

 

As played I prefer 5betting and folding to a 6bet to flatting the 4bet as most of the time you are going to be raised or check-raised post flop and then you have no clue where your are at.

badabing78
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May 1, 2012 - 7:16 pm
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isaacjames said:

 

As played I prefer 5betting and folding to a 6bet to flatting the 4bet as most of the time you are going to be raised or check-raised post flop and then you have no clue where your are at.

5b folding seems not optimal since we would have nearly half our stack already in, i think when we 5b we are committed.

isaacjames
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May 1, 2012 - 7:32 pm
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 Cant make up my mind on this one, I keep editing this reply wink

 

good point Bada,  I didnt realize we had only 60 bbs, I thought we had a 5000 chips and even then I agree we are committed, one point on 5 betting and folding though, what range could you put your average villain on?  QQ+? if you include AK then yes you cant fold, but what about if you only give him a range of JJ+ or even QQ+?  then you are an 18% dog and need to put in 2000 to win 7500 (assuming you 5bet to 1660).  I guess for the sake of good discussion only, not saying necessarily I still would 5bet fold, but lets assume the villain shows us his cards and has QQ+, isnt this a fold then?

 

I guess that is why its better no to 3 bet, and if you 3 bet then you have to go with your hand and 5bet call or shove.  I just hate flatting the 4bet and having to fold almost any flop.  unless the plan is to go with your hand on the flop, kind of a stop and go.  I mean as played you are putting half of your stack in the middle after you bet 850.

jjfmumusc/beavslayer
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May 3, 2012 - 4:28 pm
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I like a flat pf since you are deep and its early.  However, I dont think its terrible to mix up your play here occasionally and take this line; obv. if he c/r your flop bet, its a fold and unneccessary waste of chips.  As played, nh sir.

terbet11
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May 3, 2012 - 5:22 pm
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I also flat pre to the OR to both disguise my hand and also play in position.  With the way played, I call the 4 bet and play the pot in position.  From what you have said about the 4 better, he is very deep, and looks like he likes to mix it up.  I think we are deep enough to call the 4 bet to set mine if we are up against a monster.  At the end of the day we will still have position on the villain and can evaluate post with how we want to proceed.  Best of luck at the tables!

FkCoolers
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May 3, 2012 - 6:52 pm
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You can 3 bet this villain here no problem given the dynamic. Some of these posts are basically saying how to play it in a vacuum and it seems like gameflow is being ignored.

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