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October 21, 2012
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Maybe this is why big dog shoves at 20bb instead of raising to induce?
At the lower stakes, people hardly ever 3bet light anyway but they will call down light. I think in a turbo, survival and scooping blinds should be more important than inducing.
[converted_hand][hand_history]Merge, $109 Buy-in (300/600 blinds, 60 ante) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager – The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.
UTG: 4,593 (7.7 bb)
MP: 6,200 (10.3 bb)
CO: 7,930 (13.2 bb)
Hero (BTN): 12,200 (20.3 bb)
SB: 17,987 (30 bb)
BB: 12,265 (20.4 bb)
Preflop: Hero is BTN with Q
A
3 folds, [color=”red”]Hero raises to 1,399[/color], SB calls 1,099, [color=”grey”]BB folds[/color]
Flop: (3,758) K
T Q
[color=”blue”] (2 players)[/color]
SB checks, [color=”red”]Hero bets 1,455[/color], SB calls 1,455
Turn: (6,668) 2[color=”blue”] (2 players)[/color]
SB checks, [color=”red”]Hero bets 1,666[/color], SB calls 1,666
River: (10,000) 4[color=”blue”] (2 players)[/color]
SB checks, [color=”red”]Hero bets 7,620 and is all-in[/color], SB calls 7,620
[/hand_history][/converted_hand]
October 21, 2012
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This is mostly a bad beat post but I cant find the button to delete it. I should have just said that I think shoving in a turbo with 20bbs is better than raising to induce in my opinion.
June 1, 2012
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By raising you give worse hands a chance to shove, that wouldnt call your shove in the first place.
You said lower stakes, but the HH says $109 buyin??
October 21, 2012
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Yeah its a satty for a 109 seat. That’s the idea of inducing but it just doesn’t happen at low stakes. They just flat. Im trying 3x raises now and I still get flatted multiway.
If the 3x isnt narrowing the field, and im in MP or earlier, I shove 20bb with everything except AA and steals. In position, I shove everything except AA, steals, KQs, and sometimes QJs. These hands play much better against their flatting ranges than say a mid pair or AK type hand which is what they have you on 99% of the time.
If I raise one of these hands, im tripling pretty much regardless against one villain and sometimes against 2 as well. I dont feel im losing value on the hands I shove because my 20bb shoves get called by all kinds of crap too.
I think villain had like K5s or something like that in the hand above which has almost 40% equity against AQs. I’d much rather him forfeit that equity when I shove pre if he is not able to lay down top pair no kicker to 3 barrels. I may be losing a bit of value playing this way, but there is also value in being happier at the table. I think it’s a fair exchange.
May 30, 2012
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why? people calling with shitty ranges is ideal man, you should have checked back turn and evalutated river imo, jamming preflop seems like a great way to negate our edge
June 1, 2012
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Yeah agree with duggs, i think im checking back turn and evaluating river.
I may even check back the flop, and call or bet turn, and reevalauate river. If villain has a king we are losing money anyway, but checking back flop gives villain a chance to bluff or bet weaker queens or 10x for value, or underpairs he didnt shove pre. I duno, maybe thats too passive,or we are to shallow
October 21, 2012
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Personally, I think people calling with ranges that have 35-40% against AQ is good if it’s for a big pot pre flop. When I have 20bbs im ready to double or bust. I think small stacks players will call a jam with tons of hands we crush.
Im not excited about playing multiple streets for small bets post flop with that stack. If I did want to do that though, I agree that checking back is a better line.
What im saying is, why play pot flop against people with shitty calling ranges when you can just shove pre flop and get them to call with pretty much that same range?
October 21, 2012
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I will post some hands where I have made some non standard plays to illustrate what I mean.
Merge Network $750 Gtd No Limit Hold’em Tournament – t15.00/t30.00 Blinds – 8 players
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter
BB: t2890.00 96.33 BBs
UTG: t3473.00 115.77 BBs
UTG+1: t764.00 25.47 BBs
MP1: t1432.00 47.73 BBs
MP2: t1900.00 63.33 BBs
CO: t911.00 30.37 BBs
BTN: t2395.00 79.83 BBs
Hero (SB): t2235.00 74.50 BBs
Pre Flop: (t45) Hero is SB with K
A
UTG raises to t86.00, 1 fold, MP1 calls t86, 1 fold, CO calls t86, 1 fold, Hero raises to t2235 all in, 3 folds, CO calls t825 all in
Flop: (t2024) Q 5 2 (2 players – 2 are all in)
Turn: (t2024) 9 (2 players – 2 are all in)
River: (t2024) 7 (2 players – 2 are all in)
Final Pot: t2024
CO shows A
9 (Pair of Nines)
Hero shows K A (Ace High)
CO wins t2024.00
Merge Network $750 Gtd No Limit Hold’em Tournament – t30.00/t60.00 Blinds – 9 players
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter
UTG+2: t2000.00 33.33 BBs
MP1: t4372.00 72.87 BBs
MP2: t1177.00 19.62 BBs
CO: t2087.00 34.78 BBs
BTN: t2576.00 42.93 BBs
SB: t2220.00 37 BBs
BB: t602.00 10.03 BBs
UTG: t1973.00 32.88 BBs
Hero (UTG+1): t1304.00 21.73 BBs
Pre Flop: (t90) Hero is UTG+1 with Q A
1 fold, Hero raises to t1304 all in, 6 folds, BB calls t542 all in
Flop: (t1234) 3 8 A
(2 players – 2 are all in)
Turn: (t1234) K (2 players – 2 are all in)
River: (t1234) J (2 players – 2 are all in)
Final Pot: t1234
BB shows J Q
Hero shows Q A (Pair of Aces)
Hero wins t532
Hero wins t702.00
These hands happened in the last 20 minutes since I read this post. They happen like clock work. I think the play of our opponents should dictate our play and allow us to deviate from standard lines.
October 21, 2012
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Here's one argument against it, but I contend that some will float that flop and you'll end up in the same spot by the river any way.
Merge Network $1K Gtd – [Deep] No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t300.00/t600.00 Blinds + t60.00 – 9 players
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter
MP1: BB = 29.2, t17549
MP2: BB = 58.2, t34912
CO: BB = 45.1, t27067
Hero (BTN): BB = 24.5, t14692
SB: BB = 90.2, t54112
BB: BB = 51.7, t31041
UTG: BB = 142.1, t85286
UTG+1: BB = 12.4, t7466
UTG+2: BB = 53.6, t32145
Pre Flop: (t1440) Hero is BTN with 9 9
6 folds, Hero raises to t14632 all in, 1 fold, BB calls t14032
Flop: (t30104) Q 5 2 (2 players – 1 is all in)
Turn: (t30104) 6 (2 players – 1 is all in)
River: (t30104) Q (2 players – 1 is all in)
Final Pot: t30104
Hero shows 9 9
BB shows T A (Flush Ace High)
BB wins t30104.00
May 30, 2012
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bro this is pretty extreme results orientation
October 21, 2012
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It's not far off from the strategy in the 45 man vids big dog made awhile back. I think some the lower stake games on Merge play like these, especially the turbos and rebuys. When the 2-3x raises are getting 1-2 callers, then I play my normal game. I literally go all day without seeing a light 3bet so there is no point in trying to induce them.
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