suk12 said:

Easy fold for me here. Since he is limping UTG+1 pre you can assume that he is not a good player and probably wont bluff too many rivers. He probably holds 89 here or somehow 4 for straight.

Thanks suk12. Not a whole lot of reads on this player but agree 100% that he wouldn't jam here without a huge hand. The river bet was for value as loose passive players tend to call even with low pairs but when he played back it was clear I was beaten.

I guess 89 would make some sense here.

Any comments on bet sizing and or taking a different approach? I do think that checking the river would make some sense, but I'm not sure if that is in hindsight.  

i disagree with folding here i think, we have to call ~8500 more to win ~37k, and i just dont see many straights in his range besides 89dd and 45dd, and he prob isnt limping 45dd preflop…if he has 89 it means he peels flop with a gutterball which isnt too likely, and if he does peel gutter i am pretty sure like everyone above is claiming he would raise turn because hes scared of the flush draw, unless he has 89dd…if i am value betting river here i dont think im ever bet folding it after putting half our stack in the middle this just seems like a bad plan

being a fish he is def overplaying a lot of his value hands, 2pairs and slowplayed over pairs as fish love to do, so i just think im hard pressed to find a fold when we really only lose to 89 or slowplayed sets, and more likely only 89dd which is 1 combo

as for preflop i really dont mind the complete from the SB, your hand doesnt play terrible postflop and you are pretty sure BB is always just checking pre…nothing wrong with completing here with these stack sizes

as for bet sizing i think im betting like 3/4 pot on flop and turn so we can pile river, if you are gonna go for three streets like you did

jjfmumusc said:

shawnivey said:

i disagree with folding here i think, we have to call ~8500 more to win ~37k, and i just dont see many straights in his range besides 89dd and 45dd, and he prob isnt limping 45dd preflop…if he has 89 it means he peels flop with a gutterball which isnt too likely, and if he does peel gutter i am pretty sure like everyone above is claiming he would raise turn because hes scared of the flush draw, unless he has 89dd…if i am value betting river here i dont think im ever bet folding it after putting half our stack in the middle this just seems like a bad plan

being a fish he is def overplaying a lot of his value hands, 2pairs and slowplayed over pairs as fish love to do, so i just think im hard pressed to find a fold when we really only lose to 89 or slowplayed sets, and more likely only 89dd which is 1 combo

 

as for preflop i really dont mind the complete from the SB, your hand doesnt play terrible postflop and you are pretty sure BB is always just checking pre…nothing wrong with completing here with these stack sizes

 

as for bet sizing i think im betting like 3/4 pot on flop and turn so we can pile river, if you are gonna go for three streets like you did

Dude, did you read the part about this being “live poker”? At $30 buy-in, you can expect villain to be calling down all streets as played with 44, much less 45.  These donks are def capable of shoving busted draws so i'm telling you from experience of playing these things, this is more times a hand that beats us.  Bet, Bet, Bet/fold.  But just in case you dont believe me, call the fish down next time after the your given action line of bet, bet, bet then get shoved on-you'll see what i'm talking about

lol yes ive played live poker actually much more than i play online, and lmao at your argument….your reason for folding is “these donks are def capable of shoving busted draws” awesome logic for folding your hand here…and nobody is ever flatting 44 all the way down sorry, and the player sat at break and bought max chips, he is not as big a fish as you guys are making him out to be

hes just overplaying all his value hands as well, and im never folding after valuebetting this much of our stack, your getting nearly 5-1 on a call, and our line is completely aweful if your gonna bet fold this river you should never be betting it, the sizing in the hand is terrible, all around a bad hand imo and folding on the river just makes it that much worse….its the first hand with said played you guys are just assuming hes a drooler because its live and a 30$ tourney, OP is playing same tourney, so every person who plays smaller buy ins live espec satties to bigger tournaments your saying is terrible fish who just calls every hand to the river regardless and never has anything but the nuts when he jams….sounds really logical, he has like 3 hands in his range that beat us and we are 5-1 on our money, your basically saying the best line here every time is to turn 2 pair into a bluff and burn most of your stack when the blinds are 400-800 50….super play

meh yes but you can make a case for completing for sure…..fold is obv optimal but a hand like 107cc should be easy to play on flops

really want to know what you think know luda

jjfmumusc said:

Cliffs:  Seems fine as played, as long as you tell me you folded otr shove.

shawnivey said:

i disagree with folding here i think, we have to call ~8500 more to win ~37k, and i just dont see many straights in his range besides 89dd and 45dd, and he prob isnt limping 45dd preflop…if he has 89 it means he peels flop with a gutterball which isnt too likely…

 

jjfmumusc/shawnivey, thanks for the input. Both posts were great because that's exactly what I've been struggling with; being pot commited and calling the shove even though I feel I'm beat.

I did call here even though I felt I was beat, which is awful.

Just to first make things clear I've just stated that the guy was the typical calling station, paying all the way to the river with any hand with a remote showdown value and quite often paying all the way to the river with draws (even gutshot draws). Having said here I'd say most of these players would shutdown busted draws on the river, very rarely turning their hand into a bluff.

I agree that there are a bunch of good deep thinkers in micros (and in this sattie), but in this particular situation he wasn't one of them. I think he'd just call here with most pairs (the reason for value betting the river) and even 2 pairs. He'd probably raise the flop or turn with a set given the flush draw.

So I agree that there were very few hands that would beat us here, but by shoving the river he was stating that he had one of them. Would he represent one? I find it unlikely but given the odds it obv he didn't neet to do it very often to make the call right.

jjfmumusc said:

actually was a typo on my part-should have read “some donks are capable of shoving busted draws but this more times is a hand that beats us”…..um, yeah, if guy is a total drooler(at $30 rebuy live this is def. a possibility) he will be flatting 44 and 45 and 89 and two pairs, and flush draws, on and on and on. 

By now it's probably quite obvious that the villain won.

But just going over the possible hands above:

45: weird to limp from EP but def a possibility, would hit the open-ender on the flop, get there on the turn…

89: guess limp from EP would happen in this kind of sattie, would get a gut-shot on the flop (and maybe with one or even  on the hand decide to see the turn), get the nuts on the turn and wait to jam the river…

44: the worst of them… limp from EP to set mine weird given the 26BBs but possible, paid a SB lead with a low pair (possibly one  for a backdoor flush) with 2 overcards on the board, paid another bet with just a gutshot, hit it big and jammed the river…

Now it should also be obv what the villain had.

I don't recall the suits on the 44, but it was imho a very weird play…

Thanks everyone for the comments. I appreciated as they were very insightful.

shawnivey said:

and it goes way past this hand OP and jimmy have some of the worst thinking ive heard in awhile, it is one of the worst things you can do to assume everyone is a fish because of the type of tournament, its just horrific and thts what they are basing this entire hand off of, instead of logically thinking about the hand.

 

plenty of people on this site grind micros and plenty of them are thinking players, stakes are completly irrelivant in the argument as the goal in poker is to make the best play possible given the information you have….brand new player in a 30 live who jus regged havent seen play a hand, we are gonna assume he sucks real bad and cant play poker because of this. we have to get off this thinking it is going to severly hurt your game imo

Not to sound like a tool, but I'm really not at all surprised villain had 44 here(it was actually my 1st of 2nd guess) given the action on each street.  It is rare you'll find play as bad as villain's line here at online $30 r/a, but live $30 r/a I think you have to kind of expect to see crazy stuff like this from a significant portion of the field with even worse hands than 89, 45, 44.  I mean I hate it for OP that he lost, but I lol'd at villain calling down every street with 44 cuz i've seen bad shit like this many times at my local casino that has these small buy-in tourneys on Sundays(similiar buy-in with 10k guarantee but usually gets up to 15-16k with all the rebuys that come along with the speculative play).  Shitty spot otr, but I am probably folding everytime and folding pre even more than that.  Now I get to laugh at the statement above in bold, because Shawn thought I was over-generalizing every person in playing field and I ended up being 100%, double-bullseye-arrowing splitting with my assessment on what villain had vs. your line from sb.  Dont worry, OP, you can read this and save money next tourney when some clown takes this weird line against you.