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November 18, 2014
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So I’m a little bit concerned cause I’m losing money over MTTs.
When I review my stats for the last 7 months I can see I have a big cash of 900$ 8 months ago and then a regular leak of about 75$ a month.
My volume is quite low so I’m not sure what to think about it. Here’s my stats (by month) for MTTs and for STTs. Can you tell me if that is normal, variance or if I am a losing player in MTTs? Is difficult to judge because my volume is not high so I’m not sure whether this is just normal or I should stop playing and focus on STT where I’m clearly a winning player.
MTTs
STTs
Could you please give me some input on whether that is to be expected giving my volume or I’m doing something terribly wrong?
June 2, 2013
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Is that current Buy-in? why would you go from $10.50 STT to $709.30 I think there is a huge diference, maybe I am mistaken there.
For me you have a really low volume, can´t really say much about this actually, I am playing about 30~35 mtt each day, about 700 a month, and got two bad months, not losing, but my average current Buy In is below $4.00
Have you try to look at your chip EV graph? maybe that is somewhat helpfull, chip EV and BB EV also. My last two months i am losing on chip EV, and wining on BB EV, what I think means I can´t run deep enough into mtt, getting KO earlier.
November 18, 2014
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I think you are reading it wrong.
My STT all are 3.5$ or 7$, my MTT go from 1$ to 11$ (much more biased towards the 1$ range but I ocasionally play some 11$ and some 8.8$).
What you are seening is the TOTAL buying for the month. So in May (this month) I’ve played only 10$ (that’s no longer true but it was at that time). The previous month (april) my total buy in was 700$ for the whole month and I played 216 tourneys (so the average is 3.5$ tournaments) On March I buy in for a total of 833$ on 168 tourneys (so an average of 4.5$ s&Gos)
Hope that makes sense. The thing is you can clearly see I’m paying my loses on MTTs by winning the same amount on S&Go.. I’m aware I play a really low volume of MTTs but seeing the results I’m not sure if that’s just variance or I’m losing a lot.
June 2, 2013
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I was confused by “My C Buy-In” 
, I thought “C” was for “current” or something like that.
MTTs has a huge variance involved, but there is more fun too 
, more players on the field higher the variance goes. I think Theginger said somewhere he goes for 3.5 milion hands runing bellow EV (not sure if was him), you can check you chip EV graph like I mentioned before. If you still not sure about your game you can take more time to study and improve your game. Maybe play STTs for some time so you can afford a coach to check your game, maybe you have some blind spot at your game that you are actually missing money.
November 18, 2014
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I’m not sure I know how to interpret the “chip EV graph”. Specially since that big win at the start messes it up a little bit. In general terms my EV (by hands played) seem to show that the Expected Chips Won go up but the actual Chips Won go down, which I assume means I’m just not running as good as I may but otherwise I’m not playing bad. Does that make sense? I’m not sure I know how to interpret those.
September 30, 2013
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It depends on what you want to accomplish. If you only care about making money, keep playing those STT and try to set goals to get higher up in terms of buyins.
If your goal is to become better in MTT there are multiple things you can do:
1. Review your hand history with atleast one other poker player. This is a great way to get new ideas and its way easier to spot leaks. There is a thread here on the forum with study groups on skype, get in there.
2. Where do things generally go wrong? Early, mid or late stage? Check out TPE university part on either to improve that area of your game.
3. Review Andrew Brokos hand reading videos, multiple times. Dont forget to apply when playing so keep the amount of tables down and focus some sessions on only hand reading. I good idea is to review some old tournaments where you go deep and do hand reading on every hand. This is a great way to improve a vital part in your game.
4. Playing MTT is brutal, the bigger the fields are, the more brutal the game is. MTT has very high variance and playing 90 MTT is like 3-4 sessions for a month. So keep tables down or even stakes down until results improve. And then gradually increase in stakes, and tables if you feel comfortable with it.
5. Just based on results no one can tell if this is variance or bad play. For someone to answer that they must see some history for tournaments. Some players have 6 months of loosing months in a row and they play 4-6 days a week. And this is happens to really good players.
6.
November 18, 2014
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Thanks to the both of you.
No, I do not “care” only about making money (I’ve noted I kinda like it though). My usual is that I play and bust some soon and get deep on some and get really deep on some but end up busing close to the real money. With my current structure that means I’m losing money… obviosly if I do get a single final table (on the big MTTs) I end up recovering a lot.
Funny enough with all this I’ve started using more the reports section of PT4 and I’ve found some other interesting things.
For example, I’m clearly winning in small fields tournament (45 to 180 players) with ROI of 48% (obviosuly over a really small sample size) meaning I’m losing on big MTTs, probably due to variance and the fact they are brutal as you say, specially with fields of 5000 and over.
Thanks guys for the feedback. I was a little bit concerned about playing them badly as compared to S&G, specially since I come from a S&G background but given this I don’t think I’m doing that bad. I’m probably going to focus more on 45, 90 and 180 MTTs for a while to build up my background.
February 5, 2015
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I don’t think you could draw any conclusions at all from a sample size of MTTs as small as that.
Variance is much greater in MTTs than STTs.
You could be a solid winner in MTT’s and go a year or two even losing…then get it all back plus a +ROI in a single day.
You can’t even compare the two samples imo.
Possibly you could draw a more useful comparison between a sample of MTTs and 180 man SNGs. But even then it wouldn’t be that helpful. I expect a solid winner in 180 sngs should be well on the way to being at least a break-even MTT’er. I am trying to make that leap myself now, although I wouldn’t even say I am a solid winner in the 180 mans. I struggle to maintain a ROI of 8%.
I am a “work in progress”!
There is in fact a theory out there that the poker-boom celebrities such as Matusow and Ivey and Hellmuth etc. are just the guys who ran the best in live poker. The theory argues that it is not possible to play enough live poker tournaments to exact one’s true ROI. These guys like Matusow are inarguably great players, but there are hundreds like them who are of equal or perhaps even greater skill, but who just didn’t run as well as the big names at the time.
Hey! I didn’t come up with the theory, but I did find it interesting.
Play 5000 Mtt’s and have another look.
June 2, 2013
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chaos said
No, I do not “care” only about making money (I’ve noted I kinda like it though).
I laugh hard on this one 
, I kinda like to make money to lolololol
For me you are just runing bad, you run really good on the one you won, and then you are runing bad, that is mtts, graph goes all over the place, is scary
Smaller fields leads you to smaller variance swings, and that can be good. I don´t like to play mtts on stars cause there is way too many people for me.
I think you can beat the levels of Buy-in you are playing now, and there is room to improve, and this applies to all of us. I am a huge donkey sometimes 
, yet 
.
The Riceman said
There is in fact a theory out there that the poker-boom celebrities such as Matusow and Ivey and Hellmuth etc. are just the guys who ran the best in live poker. The theory argues that it is not possible to play enough live poker tournaments to exact one’s true ROI. These guys like Matusow are inarguably great players, but there are hundreds like them who are of equal or perhaps even greater skill, but who just didn’t run as well as the big names at the time.
I saw an interview with Negreanu, where he says he try to avvoid flips in live mtts, like those AK we go all in usually, they avvoid this, cause they know they can find better spots later, with post flop skills or whatever kind of sorcery they do hehehehe…
The Riceman said
… in the 180 mans. I struggle to maintain a ROI of 8%.
What buy-in you are currently playing?
I am thinking to play this tomorrow (180s $2.50), but I am kind of affraid of the variance lol, I have tilted there so many times before .
February 5, 2015
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testing testing 123 testing
February 5, 2015
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seriously!
NOW its working! I replied already twice and kept getting ajax.
I play $8 and $15 180 turbos on Stars.
Also some 2.50s when I’m hurting BR wise…like now!
I am beginning to fear that some seismic shift has occurred which I am unaware of in these 180s.
At the very least one needs to be keeping up with the winning trends. Of course, the real crushers not only know these trends, they are already figuring out how to combat them. I had a great SNG coach, but he’s gone AWOL. He ran a stable of SNG players, so he was invaluable to me.
Since Christmas I have been running at a similar -ROI as when I freakin’ started out in SNGs years ago! When i used to play off my nut on a variety of substances until I literally couldn’t even see what cards I had.
Now I play 100% no drink (gave up the rest years ago), and I still am doing this badly.
I keep telling myself it is just a swing…but almost 6 months is beginning to worry me.
June 2, 2013
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I think 8% is not that bad on $8 and $15s, if you can play 150+ each day.
Find another coach if you miss that, and were being more profitable with coaching, my coach has disappeared also, two months and he says nothing about coaching me, last two hours anyways.
Why don´t you play $3.50 rebuys?
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