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April 23, 2014
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Can I get some reviews of this hand. I am not afraid of honesty.
Scenario:
Live Game
10 Player Sit-n-Go (Turbo-ish)
$50 Buy-in
20 minute levels
Pays 3 Places $275, $150, $75
Table Stack Average 12,000 (no one has been knocked out so this is also the starting stack size)
Table stack sizes range from 3,000 – about 25,000
Current Blinds are 400/800
Hero Stack 9,900 (about 12 BB)
Villain Stack 9,500
Game Description – Average age is 102, not really but almost. It is a table with 7 players who play like its 2005 and have been quoting from Phil Hellmuth’s book. (not joking) There is 1 young player who is LAG. Villian is Mid 40’s business owner type and tends to be passive. He is fairly tight, rarely makes raises and usually has something when he gets to a showdown. I am seen as a little loose and willing to put chips in the pot.
We are in the 6th level and nobody has been knocked out. The 10 BB shove guidelines do not apply at this table. These players regularly play down to even a single BB until they are forced in.
Hand:
Hero is in MP with KsQs (SB has about 15,000 and BB has about 10,000)
Folded to me I Raise to 2,200. (one note about Pre-flop bet sizing, the standard is 3x with this table, I opened pre for 1,900 on 2 of the previous 4 hands with AK suited and had 2 callers each time. I bumped it to 2,200 to try and get some folds)
After my raise it went fold, Villain called, and everyone else folds.
Pre-flop, Bad play? Bad open? Bad bet size?
Pot is 5,600.
Before the flop I put Villains calling range at 22-JJ,KJs-KQs, KQo, A10s-AKs,AQo-AKo, excluding any middle to small suited connectors and AA,KK,QQ.
Flop comes:
Qh,3c,6d
That board clearly hits his range. He could have hit a set or could have hit any of the Q’s in his range.
OOP I c-bet 2,200. Now that I am typing this I realize I didn’t think at all about how much of his range this flop hit before I C-bet, I just wanted to c-bet, see where I was and hope to take it down.
Again about bet sizing, villain is doing NO pot odds. He only sees the bets as they relate to his stack and the blinds and probably has no idea what the pot has in it at any time.
Villain Calls.
Pot is 10,000
Hero has 5,500 behind and villain has 5,100 behind.
After villain calls I think he might have the same hand as me. I should have not worried about specific hands and focused on Brokos’s 3 hand types. But anyway, I was not real happy about the call. At this point I guess it must have been the AQ, KQ, or a set, but at the time I was just not happy about it but less contemplative than I am now.
In retrospect this seems like a bad bet considering this kinda hit his range pretty hard. Thoughts?
Turn is an 8s:
I check, he checks.
Thoughts?
River comes Qd
Of course now I am happy but if I would have thought for a minute I would have realized I only really improved against the sets he may have. Anyway, I value bet 3,400 and he shoves for 5,100, and I call.
Any help would be appreciated in reviewing this hand.
Thanks,
TheDukeVA
July 12, 2013
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9900 to start the hand, -2200 pre, -2200 on turn = 5500 stack behind on turn w 8800 in the pot??? Clearly getting this is every time. On the flop it’s just a matter of how we get the money in.
So if his calling range post flop is 22, 66 (Which I’d discount after he flats but I put it in), 77-QQ, QJ, Q10, KQ, AK (I see these floated a lot live at my local casino game, just stubborn) And I didn’t put in AA KK in obv… We have 81% Equity.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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With such a short stack, you don't have nearly as much room to maneuver as you seem to assume. You should just be shoving preflop, and once you see the flop, you should be thinking in terms of how to get the rest of your money in against the widest range possile. You shouldn't be hoping for a fold when you flop top pair. If you think that Villain's range for calling the flop will be so strong that you'll be behind it, then don't bet.
April 23, 2014
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Thanks Lapp and Andrew for responding. The situation of 8-15 BB stack in a game LIKE THIS really has me questioning conventional wisdom. Just throwing this out, tell me what I am missing.
Both of you have a million times more poker knowledge and experience than I do, so not questioning, just help me understand. The idea that I should be shoving pre-flop is because I don't have leverage after the flop, no room to maneuver. I get that if I were playing against players who will potentially be looking at pot odds and stack/pot ratios and hand equity…but they are not.
This is not on-line, these are 55-80 year old men who 3x every pre-flop bet, NEVER 3-bet without AA or KK, and blame the poker gods when A-K doesn't win. This is not abnormal. I am inCentral Virginiaand the closest casino is 2.5 hours away. Playing 3-4 nights/days a week in home games ($1-$2cash and $65 & $100 buy-in tourneys) and this table make up isEXACTLY what all of the games look like. Some Dr.'s some Lawyers, lots of Business owners and lots of retirees. Every once in a while a young player will join but not often. (I am 47 btw and usually the youngest)
So in a tournament where you start with 12,000 and by the fifth 20 minute level no one has been knocked out and the average stack is 12 BB, does the 8-15 rule apply? Again, online or against better players, I see it. But in this environment where no one is shoving with more than 5 BB preflop, and calling is decided not on pot odds or how the bet size relates to the pot but instead how it relates to the BB, should this still apply? Players will regularly play down to 1-2 BB in these games. Not everybody, but most. And this is very normal or these games.
In this situation with KQs, if I shove in MP, the only hands calling me are AK, AA and KK. For real, at this point, most of these players still see this as the beginning of the night.
So back to the post flop play, if making 3x BB bets after the flop still carries weight, should shove/fold be the mindset preflop with 10BB?
What are your thoughts? I know I was all over the place, but this has been a conlict for me for some time.
Thanks.
June 26, 2012
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If AA,KK and AK will be the only calls you get when shove from middle position. I am going to shove a wide range here. There is just no way being that short even with how you describe you table that i could ever get away from top pair good kicker. Would just shove the KQss pre.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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Yeah, if people are going to be absurdly tight against shoves, that's all the more reason to be shoving.
April 23, 2014
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That makes perfect sense. Thanks.
June 11, 2010
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I think if you think through shoving at this type of table you may pick up a few big benefits you may not have considered:
1. With stacks this small being able to chip up (potentially at low risk given the tightness of the table) is invaluable.
2. Chipping up this way gives you buffer for when one does call you with a monster. Good news is you can go right back to what you were doing.
3. You may loosen them up and given how tight you described them I would expect them to be mistake prone to say the least if they started to play looser. This would be an added advantage to playing the 8-15 shoving line.
Tight is a very exploitable sickness in my opinion. It is a lot easier and more predictable to handle and certainly more exploitable given the stack sizes. No need to create awkward situations for yourself if you don't have too!
April 23, 2014
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Thanks Les. That all makes sense. Perfect sense.
When trying to expoit this table like that, what are the table's countermoves? IOW if Hero sees another player expoiting the table with shoves at a high rate, how would Hero counter and exploit this player?
Wait for top hand and call? That seems like it is playing right into V hands. Open light prior to V to take his line away.
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