View Plans & Pricing

If you are signed in and are seeing this message, please be sure you have selected a user name in My Profile. The forum requires it.
A A A
Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 (0 votes) 
sp_TopicIcon
Longer than expected theory on preflop 3-bet ranges.
TheClubber
Midstakes Master
Members
Forum Posts: 117
Member Since:
November 18, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
May 23, 2015 - 2:16 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Played a hand last night in a $125 live tournament that led me to a broader question about pre-flop strategy.

Here's some of the hand basics: antes about 0.2BB. Fish limped UTG1, probably not trapping as he has limped JTo and other weak hands before. Sharp aggro player raised 3x over the limp from hijack. I was just stacking a pot so didn't know my exact stack size but it was between 25 and 30BB. Let's say 30BB.

If I had 15BB I would shove or fold in this spot. I'm risking 15BB to win 7.5BB. Even if somehow I lose every showdown, if he folds 2/3 of his hands I break even.  If I have 25% equity against his calling range, I only need him to fold half the time to break even. I'm short enough that I will want to gamble some to chip up. 

But when I get 30BB, shoving seems much less appealing as I'm risking 4x the pot. If I lose every showdown, he needs to fold 80% of his range for a shove to break even. If I'm 25% against his calling range, he needs to fold 2/3 of his hands to break even, which he might do if he's opening wide and trying to pick up a lot of chips uncontested. Still I'm deep enough that the risk seems too great for the reward.

So if I'm too deep to shove a lot of hands here, my options are to 3-bet / call with some hands and 3-bet / fold with others, or to have a calling range. The problem with 3-betting is that any 3-bet size gives me a very good price on a call if he shoves. If I 3-bet to 8BB and he 4-bet shoves for 30BB, I have to call off 22 BB to win 42BB (his 30 + my 8 + 1.5 from blinds + limper plus 2 from antes).

There's two ways to think about this 2:1 ratio that are slightly conflicting.

a) Either I should make assumptions about his range and call every hand that has 33% equity against his range.

b) or I should ignore guessing at his ranges and call the best 2/3 of my hands to be unexploitable.

Going with the first approach, against the top 10% of hands, I'd have close to enough equity to call hands like 86s or KTo. This would mean my 3-bet folding range wouldn't have many hands at all.

Going with the second approach, whatever hands I put in my 3-bet range, I call with the top 2/3 of them which again has me putting in my stack with a lot of mediocre hands at the service of math. This seems technically correct but emotionally nerve-wracking.

My last option is instead to build a calling range. Initial candidates would be those mediium strength hands that I don't want to risk all my chips with but do well against villain's perceived wide late position opening range and give myself the option to leverage my positional after the flop. 

Flatting has some obvious potential disadvantages

– no chance to win the hand pre-flop,

– gives players behind me good odds to call 

– opens myself up to a squeeze from other players meaning I either don't get to see the flop or create a situation where a squeeze gives me great pot odds and I am again are forced by math to a big pre-flop race as a dog.

So from all this rambling

1) Is my reasoning sound?

2) At what stack depth do you start to consider a 3-bet fold range?

3) At what stack depth do you start to consider calling an option or do the downsides of calling outweigh the benefits?

4) Why are there no good options? Anyone else getting the pre-WSOP crazies?

joelshitshow
Playing The Prelims
Members
Forum Posts: 582
Member Since:
February 20, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
May 23, 2015 - 4:51 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Hoping someone can smack down my comments if they don't make sense.

 

The benefit of 3-bet shoving with any stack has to do with the quality of your opponents. As a lesser player (or maybe just a less confident one—I too am going crazy waiting for the WSOP, and I go at the end so I have another month of craziness behind), I would have a 3-bet-shoving range with 30 BB because I have to take higher variance +EV spots if I want a chance to win. If I am a better player and/or my opponents are suck, I can outplay them and win more tactically.

 

As I improve, I will have to develop 3-bet ranges that include hands I would fold to a 4-bet.

 

The issue with calling a 4-bet shove is that you don't have fold equity. Having fold equity doesn't just give you another way to win a hand but it also lowers your variance because you introduce a third outcome (everyone folding). So depending on your stack maybe 3-bet shoving yourself could be the better play, depending on your skill and your opponents' skill.

folding_aces_pre_yo
High Stakes Mario Kart Propping
Members
Forum Posts: 1133
Member Since:
September 14, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
May 24, 2015 - 5:19 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

I'm trying to figure out the EV caculations for this example you have given and i'm really struggling.

 

There's 3 outcomes

 

outcome1

hero shoves v folds , hero wins 7.5bb 

outcome2

hero shoves v calls hero wins 19.5bb (v iso raised for 3bb which added up to 7.5bb in the pot pre ,they'll then have to call off 12bb when hero shoves for 15bb)

outcome3

hero shoves v calls we lose 15bb
 
Okay, so we’ve got our three outcomes. Now we just need to find the probability of each outcome happening, and the amount of money we win or lose when it does happen. 
 
can anyone help me with this part?
 
Foucault

TPE Pro
Members
Forum Posts: 2067
Member Since:
December 6, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
May 24, 2015 - 12:35 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

folding_aces_pre_yo said:

Access Denied

It's going to require making some assumptions about ranges. Also, I think you'll have an easier time if you just look at Hero's equity when called rather than having to work out how often and how much Hero wins/loses when called. So if you decide Hero's range has 40% equity vs Villain's, then you can treat Hero's profit in that situation as .4 * Pot – Hero's contribution to pot.

Forum Timezone: America/New_York

Most Users Ever Online: 2780

Currently Online:
62 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

bennymacca: 2616

Foucault: 2067

folding_aces_pre_yo: 1133

praetor: 1033

theginger45: 924

P-aire 146: 832

Turbulence: 768

The Riceman: 731

duggs: 591

florianm1: 588

Newest Members:

Tillery999

sdmathis89

ne0x00

adrianvaida2525

Anteeater

Laggro

Forum Stats:

Groups: 4

Forums: 24

Topics: 12705

Posts: 75003

 

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 1063

Members: 12008

Moderators: 2

Admins: 5

Administrators: RonFezBuddy, Killingbird, Tournament Poker Edge Staff, ttwist, Carlos

Moderators: sitelock, sitelock_1