September 14, 2014
#Game No : 656235001
***** 888poker Hand History for Game 656235001 *****
$10/$20 Blinds No Limit Holdem – ***
Tournament #65079758 $10 + $1 – Table #10 9 Max (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: RunFolksOver ( $3,524 )
Seat 2: london_ace ( $2,536 )
Seat 3: kello18 ( $3,060 )
Seat 4: ohpavel1987 ( $3,000 )
Seat 5: Biggrund ( $2,875 )
Seat 6: AGAAK ( $2,940 )
Seat 7: lolwtfurbad ( $3,000 )
Seat 9: _STALIN_ ( $3,125 )
Seat 10: Hardrada71 ( $2,970 )
kello18 posts small blind [$10]
ohpavel1987 posts big blind [$20]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to london_ace [ A, T ]
Biggrund folds
AGAAK folds
lolwtfurbad folds
_STALIN_ raises [$52]
Hardrada71 folds
RunFolksOver folds
london_ace calls [$52]
kello18 folds
ohpavel1987 calls [$32]
** Dealing flop ** [ T, 7, 8 ]
ohpavel1987 checks
_STALIN_ checks
london_ace bets [$83]
ohpavel1987 calls [$83]
_STALIN_ folds
** Dealing turn ** [ 6]
ohpavel1987 checks
london_ace bets [$249]
ohpavel1987 calls [$249]
** Dealing river ** [ 8]
ohpavel1987 bets [$2,616]
london_ace ???
Hey,
No reads.
TPE i'm having a hard time folding TPTK , i just think villian is FOS here. They've taken a very very strange line on all streets, they've c/c 2 streets and now they decide to just jam river.
I'll run through this hand quickly , when they call hero's flop bet , i discounted strong hands from there range like TT/77/88 , on such a dangerous flop, they would want to build a pot with these hands and get there money in with the best of it, there's to many bad turn cards for villian for them to be slow playing , espically when the pot is small small compared to the relative stacks , maybe a hand like J 9 or J 9 may just call the flop bet and slow play.
the turn , completes a straight , i decide to bet again beacuse i still think i can get value from KT/JT/99 and flush draws.
The river pairs and they decide to shove, well i think it's very unlikely for v to have a boat on the river given how the hands played out , i also think shoving a straight on the river would be terrible , hero could easily have a boat on the river.
so basically i just think v is FOS IMO , obv sometimes my read could be wrong, he could of just played his hand really bad lol.
what do u guys do? do we have a bluff catcher here?
I remember in andrew's video he did say a indication of a monster hand is ” suprising bets” , well this sure did suprise me.
Yes we do have a bluff catcher hand here. Does that mean we should be calling with this bluff catcher? Well, thats open to interpretation.
Generally when villains take a passive line then suddenly show aggression they are weighted towards strong hands. Here the villain is repping a boat or perhaps a straight.
I also dont think we have alot of boats in our range as we are not barreling this turn card with our 2prs and sets. We are more than likely to check behind.
I would fold in this spot unless I had a solid read on villain.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
Agree with above posters. I don't think your line before river is bad, but I could see playing most decision points differently. IMO there's a case for:
3bet pre-flop
bet larger on flop
check turn
Checking turn is the only one I feel strongly about. I think T9/98/97 are all quite likely to take this line, so although there may be some hands you can get value from, there are also some you can lose value to. I doubt you're a big favorite against the range that puts money in against you, and getting check-raised is a disaster even if V has the goods 100% of the time.
I don't think your river logic really makes sense either. You're talking about how he can't shove a straight because you might have a full house meanwhile you're considering calling with one pair.
September 14, 2014
January 15, 2013
Imo, this is a classic example why it has been stated elsewhere in this site (I believe by bigdog) that you can't win MTTS early, but you can certainly lose them.
The ONLY reason I am flatting with this hand at 10/20 is to hit my nut flush so i can stack my opponent. Otherwise, i am giving up on this hand fairly quickly. i hate the donk lead with two opponents on this wet a board as well– if this is a thinking opponent, I beleive he is flatting it becasue he has a monster and wants to punish you because you're just the type of opponent who he believes cannot get away from tptk at 10/20. And if he has a premium like JJ+ and he raises on this wet a board, then what do you do?
As played, I'd check call flop and be over it on the turn. If i actually made it to the river and he bluffed be with this all in bet, well good for him, I still have 100 bbs and live ot fight another day.
As an aside you might want to watch bigdogs videos re: early stage play, as I noticed that you were already down nearly 25 bbs at 10/20 before this hand even started.
3-betting preflop early stages isnt something i do alot and is mostly premiums. This is however a good spot as we are playing on the button with position and we have a hand that can hit really big. We can also apply pressure on alot of runouts to take the pot away from the MP raiser.
The donk lead isnt bad as we are going to get alot of hands worse than ours to call. I would be betting bigger.
Turn, I would check behind as I dont think we are getting value from worse or better hands to fold and if we get check/raised we dont want to fold our nut flush draw.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
“The ONLY reason I am flatting with this hand at 10/20 is to hit my nut flush so i can stack my opponent.”
Then just fold pre, because it’s pretty damn hard to make a flush, and when you do it’s pretty damn hard to stack someone with it.
“i hate the donk lead”
The preflop raiser checked.
“if this is a thinking opponent, I beleive he is flatting it becasue he has a monster and wants to punish you because you’re just the type of opponent who he believes cannot get away from tptk at 10/20. And if he has a premium like JJ+ and he raises on this wet a board, then what do you do?”
Hero will have the best hand very often here. All of your arguments are about why it sucks to bet into hands that are better than yours, which of course is true, but you’re ignoring the value of betting into weaker hands. It’s pretty hard to make a strong hand, and you shouldn’t just go around assuming your opponents always have them.
September 14, 2014
you make a point andrew.
once we do 3-bet with ATs, our value target would be A9s and below , it's unlikely v will call with worse ace's so i can't see much of a value target?, villians raise/calling range may conistant of better aces like AQ+ maybe AJs, since we are deep though they may also call with worse like KQs, KJs KTs, pocket pairs , stuff like that.
January 15, 2013
Foucalt, so you are advocating that a player who has presumably already splashed around in pots early to the tune of having already lost 24 bbs at the 10/20 level should be playing trouble hands like A-10 aggressively this early in the tournament? I can understand why YOU might want to be involved in the hand, but, imo that logic does not necessarily apply to players whose postflop skills might not be as strong as yours. And why would we lead out large into two players on the flop on a wet board this early?
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
mikewebb68 said:
Foucalt, so you are advocating that a player who has presumably already splashed around in pots early to the tune of having already lost 24 bbs at the 10/20 level should be playing trouble hands like A-10 aggressively this early in the tournament? I can understand why YOU might want to be involved in the hand, but, imo that logic does not necessarily apply to players whose postflop skills might not be as strong as yours. And why would we lead out large into two players on the flop on a wet board this early?
Mike,
I don't know why you are so focused on those 24bb as though they indicate some mistake. It's entirely possible to play perfectly and lose 24bb or even much more in level one. I would contend that if you're going to play ATs, you ought to play it aggressively or not at all. Calling isn't a compromise, like “I raise my strong hands and call my medium strength ones”, especially not from middle position. You're going to make a flush draw a lot more often than you make a flush, and when you make a flush draw, you want to be able to play aggressively.
As for the flop, it's not really leading out, the PFR has already checked. The fact that the board is wet is the reason to bet larger, as there are more opportunities to get a large bet called by hands you are beating.
September 14, 2014
Well usually i tend to flat with ATs for most part , in the mid-late stages I sometimes merge my range and 3-bet it against players that raise often and call with a wider range.
Early stages , flatting ain't terrible, , it's not a mistake to flat a raise , hey there's plenty of articles online that say u can flat with ATs! I do agree though that it seems playing this hand aggressively by 3-betting will be so much better.
as for the 24bb , i honestly can't remember how i lost that, even if i had lost 65bb , that don't mean anything.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
If it's less good than another option, it's a mistake in my book. I agree calling is better than folding, but you should always be looking for the most profitable option. Why would you only merge your range late in the tournament? It's always seemed strange to me that aggressive 3-betting is so common among the best cash game players, and yet so rare in the early stages of MTTs, which really ought to play quite similar to a cash game.
Foucault said:
If it's less good than another option, it's a mistake in my book. I agree calling is better than folding, but you should always be looking for the most profitable option. Why would you only merge your range late in the tournament? It's always seemed strange to me that aggressive 3-betting is so common among the best cash game players, and yet so rare in the early stages of MTTs, which really ought to play quite similar to a cash game.
January 15, 2013
Foucault said:
mikewebb68 said:
Foucalt, so you are advocating that a player who has presumably already splashed around in pots early to the tune of having already lost 24 bbs at the 10/20 level should be playing trouble hands like A-10 aggressively this early in the tournament? I can understand why YOU might want to be involved in the hand, but, imo that logic does not necessarily apply to players whose postflop skills might not be as strong as yours. And why would we lead out large into two players on the flop on a wet board this early?
Mike,
I don't know why you are so focused on those 24bb as though they indicate some mistake. It's entirely possible to play perfectly and lose 24bb or even much more in level one. I would contend that if you're going to play ATs, you ought to play it aggressively or not at all. Calling isn't a compromise, like “I raise my strong hands and call my medium strength ones”, especially not from middle position. You're going to make a flush draw a lot more often than you make a flush, and when you make a flush draw, you want to be able to play aggressively.
As for the flop, it's not really leading out, the PFR has already checked. The fact that the board is wet is the reason to bet larger, as there are more opportunities to get a large bet called by hands you are beating.
I focuse on the 24 bbs since they convey a table image, and if he has been splashign around in pots at 10/20, it does factor into how villians will play against him.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
mikewebb68 said:
Foucault said:
mikewebb68 said:
Foucalt, so you are advocating that a player who has presumably already splashed around in pots early to the tune of having already lost 24 bbs at the 10/20 level should be playing trouble hands like A-10 aggressively this early in the tournament? I can understand why YOU might want to be involved in the hand, but, imo that logic does not necessarily apply to players whose postflop skills might not be as strong as yours. And why would we lead out large into two players on the flop on a wet board this early?
Mike,
I don't know why you are so focused on those 24bb as though they indicate some mistake. It's entirely possible to play perfectly and lose 24bb or even much more in level one. I would contend that if you're going to play ATs, you ought to play it aggressively or not at all. Calling isn't a compromise, like “I raise my strong hands and call my medium strength ones”, especially not from middle position. You're going to make a flush draw a lot more often than you make a flush, and when you make a flush draw, you want to be able to play aggressively.
As for the flop, it's not really leading out, the PFR has already checked. The fact that the board is wet is the reason to bet larger, as there are more opportunities to get a large bet called by hands you are beating.
Villian makes it 3bb, Hero raises to 8bb with As Ac, Villain calls. Flop Ts 8s 2d. V checks, H bets 8bb, V calls. Turn 6s, both check. River 9d, Villain bets 8bb, Hero calls and loses to T9. That's 24bb lost with 0 splashing or errors IMO. Obviously you could construct quite a few other scenarios, some involving two or smaller pots, that also result in Hero losing 24bb without either playing badly or generating a splashy image. I also don't think that a splashy image would deter me from 3betting ATs. In fact I usually have such an image and I usually 3b ATs in spots like this.
Most Users Ever Online: 2780
Currently Online:
37 Guest(s)
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
bennymacca: 2616
Foucault: 2067
folding_aces_pre_yo: 1133
praetor: 1033
theginger45: 924
P-aire 146: 832
Turbulence: 768
The Riceman: 731
duggs: 591
florianm1: 588
Newest Members:
Tillery999
sdmathis89
ne0x00
adrianvaida2525
Anteeater
Laggro
Forum Stats:
Groups: 4
Forums: 24
Topics: 12705
Posts: 75003
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1063
Members: 12008
Moderators: 2
Admins: 5
Administrators: RonFezBuddy, Killingbird, Tournament Poker Edge Staff, ttwist, Carlos
Moderators: sitelock, sitelock_1