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(4 votes) 
July 30, 2012
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Blinds 800/1600 100 ante – Live Tournament – Blinds 45 minutes – about 45 minutes to the end of day 1
Hero (CO): 65k (40 BBs)
Villain (BB): around 120-125k
It's folded around to me and I open to 3.5k with K
Q
in the Cutoff. I have a TAG image so far and haven't been playing a lot of hands in the last hour.
The BB thinks for a while and raises to 9.6k. BB is a very accomplished player and deep thinker, and although older (55+) he plays a lot online and plays an up-to-date game. He seems to respect somewhat my game. I don't think he would 3bet light OOP, so most likely his range would be TT+ AJ+ and maybe KQ/QJ, but then again as he was OOP he might 3bet with 88+ to try to take it down pre-flop (does the range make sense?).
Although facing a good player and the big stack on the table is not ideal I feel folding is obviously not an option and decide to call and reevaluate flop.
Flop comes K610
BB leads out 12k, in what feels like a probe bet as if he had hit the K he'd be making me fold a lot of hands he could get value from. I think he would/could bet any pairs here and possibly AQ/AJ. AA is somewhat unlikely but a possibility. KK and TT very unlikely given that he'd risk making me fold a lot of hands he could extract more value in later streets. AK would obviously crush us but we would be ahead of QQ, JJ, 99, 88, AQ, AJ, A10.
What's the best course of action? Calling and reevaluating turn? 3bet jamming to take down any weak lead?
Just remembering that this is a live tourney so ranges and tournament life importance is very different from online.
July 20, 2012
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well you are behind his 3bet for value range for sure. You are going to be dominated sometimes and are only dominating some bluffs. So flatting here seems a bit loose to me, but with position I don't mind it too much.
You say you think his bet on the flop is a probe bet. I think given that he 3bet preflop oop I would expect him to be cbetting all his value hands here (AK, KQ, AA, KK, 66 if in his 3bet range). If he is good then I would expect him to check QQ, JJ, AQ type hands (unless you have a dynamic where he could expect to get value from them, or be bluffing A high getting you off small pps etc). But of course he could be probe betting as you say (ugh, I hate probe bets). Either way, if you are going to call KQ preflop here then it would be a big mistake to fold on a K high flop.
I don't see any point in raising here, I would call and probably call at least one more street, depending how the board ran out and based on your reads of whether he can be bluffing, and if he would barrel bluffs, or barrel any weaker hands etc. It sucks when you run into AK but that's a preflop decision really. I don't know why you would want to 'take down any weak lead', his weak hands are what you want to play against here, if you raise or shove then you can guarantee you will only be playing the top of his range.
July 30, 2012
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“well you are behind his 3bet for value range for sure. You are going to be dominated sometimes and are only dominating some bluffs. So flatting here seems a bit loose to me, but with position I don’t mind it too much.”
Thanks for the reply. The more I think about the hand the more I feel it should have been a fold pre-flop. There’s almost no flop that wouldn’t lead to difficult decisions against a tough player.
“If he is good then I would expect him to check QQ, JJ, AQ type hands (uunless you have a dynamic where he could expect to get value from them, or be bluffing A high getting you off small pps etc). But of course he could be probe betting as you say (ugh, I hate probe bets).”
Don’t you think he would cbet any pairs like 88 99 JJ QQ as well, given that while my range was not superwide it was not awfully narrow either?
“It sucks when you run into AK but that’s a preflop decision really. I don’t know why you would want to ‘take down any weak lead’, his weak hands are what you want to play against here, if you raise or shove then you can guarantee you will only be playing the top of his range.”
Sure thing. Great point. Obviously I would only get him to fold all hands that I’m beating.
Thanks!
July 20, 2012
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“Don't you think he would cbet any pairs like 88 99 JJ QQ as well, given that while my range was not superwide it was not awfully narrow either?”
I guess it depends on the kind of player he is. A lot of players will cbet near 100% of the time and if he is in that category then yeah he will bet there with those hands. But imo he 'should' be betting for a reason, which is either for value or as a bluff. With those hands he wouldn't be bluffing because he can't really expect you to fold anything better. Whether he would bet for value depends on the dynamic between you, if he thinks you are going to call with worse hands then he can. But to be honest this is probably me making the mistake of assuming the opponent thinks the way I think. So you are right, he could definitely be cbetting those hands too.
July 17, 2012
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I flop a set and I am getting as much value in the pot as I can get away with. I'm cbetting here against most opponents. I think we need to call a cbet here and see a turn. V's range is pretty wide and I'd be looking to call another barrel if the price is right. Basically, we have showdown, so I think we should try to continue and keep the pot small if we can.
July 30, 2012
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runningouts said:
I guess it depends on the kind of player he is. A lot of players will cbet near 100% of the time and if he is in that category then yeah he will bet there with those hands. But imo he 'should' be betting for a reason, which is either for value or as a bluff. With those hands he wouldn't be bluffing because he can't really expect you to fold anything better. Whether he would bet for value depends on the dynamic between you, if he thinks you are going to call with worse hands then he can. But to be honest this is probably me making the mistake of assuming the opponent thinks the way I think. So you are right, he could definitely be cbetting those hands too.
Thanks runningouts for the feedback. I think you reasoning is right on. Techincally it wasn't a probe bet given villain 3betted pre, so it wasn't a sign of weakness as it would have been if he had called pre and led the flop. A very basic mistake on my part.
ShortStackJack said:
I flop a set and I am getting as much value in the pot as I can get away with. I'm cbetting here against most opponents. I think we need to call a cbet here and see a turn. V's range is pretty wide and I'd be looking to call another barrel if the price is right. Basically, we have showdown, so I think we should try to continue and keep the pot small if we can.
November 12, 2012
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My first thought was that a good player, knowing he is OOP against another good player, in a live tournament, is just not going to be light here almost ever. It seems you agree with that but what you have to realize is that against that range, KQ is not a great hand (i.e. we're talking relative strength here) … in fact its pretty weak. Break down typical situations:
1) The board comes rags – this is probably your most profitable type of board because you can float, but its not a fistpump spot because his range is pretty strong and he's gonna continue on the turn a lot. Maybe he double barrels AQ/AK too, that we dont know.
2) You flop a draw on say [J,T,x] – again a lot of his range is continuing on that board. Not a lot of fold equity raising with our straight draw on the flop because we'd either be bluffing out an AQ/AK hand or getting it in versus TT+, so you cant do much other than flat a cbet there too and see if he shuts down on the turn.
3) You flop a K like you did here – about the best you could hope for and you're still bluffcatching. His range is strong, we're not seeing ghosts here, so you have to be a bit concerned about getting stacked on this type of board.
So really no scenario is great for us…. overall its just a poopy spot given his range + he's a good player. You could say that we win a lot in position vs his AJ+ hands (which there are many combos of), and I would agree, but only if you can fold turn if he keeps betting. This is a spot where I'd be really confident that he's gonna play honestly on the turn versus us, so calling flop and giving up on the turn seems right even though we have a good hand.
Just look for better spots… you have plenty of time and I'm sure a lot of other softspots at the table in whatever live tourney it was. KQ is a great hand to have in position but once the action gets ramped up its a lot less valuable, and becomes a bluffcatcher and a troublehand.
Aliases: drx975 (Stars/FTP), donkrx (Merge)
August 13, 2012
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donkrx said:
My first thought was that a good player, knowing he is OOP against another good player, in a live tournament, is just not going to be light here almost ever. It seems you agree with that but what you have to realize is that against that range, KQ is not a great hand (i.e. we're talking relative strength here) … in fact its pretty weak. Break down typical situations:
1) The board comes rags – this is probably your most profitable type of board because you can float, but its not a fistpump spot because his range is pretty strong and he's gonna continue on the turn a lot. Maybe he double barrels AQ/AK too, that we dont know.
2) You flop a draw on say [J,T,x] – again a lot of his range is continuing on that board. Not a lot of fold equity raising with our straight draw on the flop because we'd either be bluffing out an AQ/AK hand or getting it in versus TT+, so you cant do much other than flat a cbet there too and see if he shuts down on the turn.
3) You flop a K like you did here – about the best you could hope for and you're still bluffcatching. His range is strong, we're not seeing ghosts here, so you have to be a bit concerned about getting stacked on this type of board.
So really no scenario is great for us…. overall its just a poopy spot given his range + he's a good player. You could say that we win a lot in position vs his AJ+ hands (which there are many combos of), and I would agree, but only if you can fold turn if he keeps betting. This is a spot where I'd be really confident that he's gonna play honestly on the turn versus us, so calling flop and giving up on the turn seems right even though we have a good hand.
Just look for better spots… you have plenty of time and I'm sure a lot of other softspots at the table in whatever live tourney it was. KQ is a great hand to have in position but once the action gets ramped up its a lot less valuable, and becomes a bluffcatcher and a troublehand.
agree,i dont like flat kq to 3bets,if u say ur sure he has a stong range he re just fold sir,dont go with kq after him,,if ur not that sure ,and he could be light,i prefer 4bet-fold instead of flating..if he flats the 4bet,then its ok,u have the same spot only with initiative,and ull know where u are in the hand more easily
July 30, 2012
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donkrx said:
My first thought was that a good player, knowing he is OOP against another good player, in a live tournament, is just not going to be light here almost ever. It seems you agree with that but what you have to realize is that against that range, KQ is not a great hand (i.e. we're talking relative strength here) … in fact its pretty weak. Break down typical situations:
Thanks for the thoughtful post. It was pretty much what I've talked to a friend the following day. There was no flop (besides miracle flops) in which we wouldn't face marginal decisions and be in a tough position post flop.
simbadlion said:
agree,i dont like flat kq to 3bets,if u say ur sure he has a stong range he re just fold sir,dont go with kq after him,,if ur not that sure ,and he could be light,i prefer 4bet-fold instead of flating..if he flats the 4bet,then its ok,u have the same spot only with initiative,and ull know where u are in the hand more easily
Thanks simbadlion.
I did think about a small 4bet pre. I had a very tight image at the table, and he was clearly not defending his BB much so his range was quite narrow unless raised by some of the fish on the table or a LAG player that was openning 35-40% hands. I don't think a 4bet would fold many hands in his 3bet range, on the other hand it's true that I would have the initiative and my perceived range would be even stronger (AA KK QQ AK).
July 31, 2012
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LordScanner said:
Although facing a good player and the big stack on the table is not ideal I feel folding is obviously not an option and decide to call and reevaluate flop.
This is where I think you made your mistake. You are facing the big stack with a weak hand considering you are facing a 3-bet. Folding WAS an option, and given the table dynamics, probably the best one. Instead of thinking that folding isn’t an option, think instead of what calling would do. If I call, I’ll most likely be facing a c-bet (larger bet too since there was 3-betting PF). If I miss (which I will most of the time), I’ll have to fold. If hit something small (a pair or draw, and the second most likely scenario), am I willing to continue? Of course 4-betting is an option too, but I think that's better covered in earlier posts.
I’d much rather be holding a small PP or suited connectors here and hope to hit a home run, but even then I’d be risking 1/6th of my stack just to see a flop.
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