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April 30, 2015
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This is a satellite tournament, 16 players out of 250 getting seats to a WPT event. Currently 90 players remain, chip average around 27BB. I have 15BB and I am UTG. My image at the table has been very solid. All through the day, I have been playing not more than 10% of my hands (main reason is due to being card dead and hence not able to 3-bet with K7s over a raise 😉 ). There are 2 big stacks at the table with more than 2x the average, and 2-3 stacks that are ~10BB.
I am dealt 66. Is this a shove or fold decision only? Is there room to min-raise and fold to 3-bet and a call, or may be go all-in to 3-bet with no other callers?
April 30, 2015
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Forgot to add, this is a 30 min level tournament and so, plays sufficiently deep…
May 30, 2012
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This one is kinda tough for me. I can equally go Jam vs. fold. Look, you have to accumulate some chips to survive this thing. Long way to go. I lean towards jamming. NO WAY i’m opening and folding. UTG, I’m either going with it or not.
September 14, 2014
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Pretty sure you can r/f in this spot and call a 3-bet shove with the top of your range.
I’d Get this in pre because if someone calls your raise you’re going to have a hand that is hard to play post flop. Folding is also an option, but i’d much rather much rather shove this if the players on my table have a tighter calling range, if they have a somewhat wide calling range you’d want to shove a tighter range here.
Since you said you’ve played solid , i’d go for r/f>shove>fold.
hope this helps 🙂
January 20, 2014
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I would argue that this is a shove / fold decision only. You are going to be put in so many awkward spots, make your decision now, go with it or don’t. So, what to do …
This is extremely close actually and it all depends on if there were antes or not. Were there 10% antes, 20%, or no antes? If there were no antes, I would fold. If there were 10% or more I would shove. Just going by the push fold charts, that’s what I would do.
If this push/fold chart is new to you, watch this video: Push/Fold Chart Explained
If it’s not new to you, then nevermind 
Thanks for the post!
June 11, 2012
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SIGABA said
I would argue that this is a shove / fold decision only. You are going to be put in so many awkward spots, make your decision now, go with it or don’t. So, what to do …This is extremely close actually and it all depends on if there were antes or not. Were there 10% antes, 20%, or no antes? If there were no antes, I would fold. If there were 10% or more I would shove. Just going by the push fold charts, that’s what I would do.
If this push/fold chart is new to you, watch this video: Push/Fold Chart Explained
If it’s not new to you, then nevermind
SIGABA said
If this push/fold chart is new to you, watch this video: Push/Fold Chart Explained
If it’s not new to you, then nevermind
in your video at 02:3x 450/9=50 and not 40 so the ante is 12.5% on stars
February 20, 2015
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Have players with bigger stacks been slowing down yet? Sometimes they don’t get how multiseat satellites work.
Anyway, if you notice bigger stacks tightening up (probably too early for them to do it, but it’s a human response to do so), it means you can widen your shoving range.
I don’t think any of it has an effect here. Shoving seems important because it’s too early to let the nature of the tournament affect your play with 15 bigs.
May 30, 2012
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I understand push/fold charts and all. I don’t like raise/fold here. You lose chips when you should be trying to preserve your stack. There’s still 90 players left. At some point you have to gain some chips. I’d rather save those 3bbs for another spot in 20 minutes rather then use them now when you think you may fold to a 3bet shove from another shorty.
I agree with Joe, are the bigger stacks very active? Are the short stacks just sitting back and being super tight/passive?
*Remember, this is a satty, not a reg tourney. We are trying to save our stack and not give away chips.
If I shove and get it in vs a shortys AQ from the SB……. I’m ok with that. I’m ahead and lets see what the poker gods have in store for us.
April 30, 2015
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Some GREAT discussions here!! This is why I love the TPE forums!!
Now, let me open myself up to the firing line and let myself get shot by all of you by revealing the line I took in this hand.
I limped UTG with 66. Reasons –
1. It might look strong to some people.
2. I can still call a 2.5-3x raise if action comes back to me.
3. If there is a raise and a re-raise, I can assume I am up against a bigger pair and 2 overcards or 3-4 overcards. In that case, I will fold.
4. If there is just a shove from a short stack, I will call.
5. If there is a couple more limps and no raises, trust me, it happens more often than you think, then I get to see a flop for free.
Scenario #3 came into play and I folded. AQo(short stack) and JJ(big stack) faced off and I was happy I spent only 1BB on this hand. Ironically, the board ran out to give me a straight and I just smiled on the inside.
In hindsight, I thought the best play here is to shove, and next best is to fold. What do you guys think is the most horrible effect of my stance here?
April 30, 2015
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Oh, and to answer all your questions,
People haven’t started tightening up yet. Still trying to get up to 40-50k (blinds were 400-800 with 100 antes) to keep themselves alive around bubble time. Big stacks are more or less playing TAG.
December 30, 2015
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How does this structure translate in to online terms? Roughly a turbo?
That is such a perfectly awkward stack for this hand and position. I feel like this is place I have leaked a lot in my game. I don’t recall who put it in these terms (I assume it was in a TPE university video since I am binge-watching them at the moment), but now I say to myself, “Every chip I have makes a double-up more meaningful. Is this really the spot to give up a chip?”.
Some info I am starting to use to help me make this decision:
– Are the blinds about to go up?
– Am I OK to let the blinds go through me again or do I end up in a place where I have to shove with no fold equity?
– Table dynamics (lots of talk in the thread about this already)
If there are limps in my game (which there probably aren’t since I don’t know what I’d be balancing with.. I guess a tricky AA or KK UTG, but I stopped doing that unless the table is sick-wild as it is just such a waste / dangerous if no one raises) I think it would be only if I am willing to shove any raise thinking I might have induced a light squeeze. So a limp is either a set-mine (the odds work, especially with antes) or to induce a squeeze. Really I’m hoping for a lower pair or A2-A5 since everything else is either really bad or I am a slight favorite. I’m not sure this works well from EP anyway since you may have a few other limpers to get through with a re-raise and the pot may be giving good odds for others to gamble by this point. Again, I can’t justify a limp though because most of the time I’m losing that 1BB and reducing my double-up size or shove fold equity.
Most of this thinking is pretty new to me since joining TPE, so I hope to read more thoughts on all this!
May 30, 2012
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Movie, it’s roughly a turbo in regards to online. I’ve played a bunch of 30 minute sat ties.
Nav, I still don’t like the limp. Here’s why. What if you got 2 calls and flop came 543 rb. Now what? Sure, you put in 1bb, but that 1bb is important in this structure. Remember, it’s a satty and you are just trying to survive with at least ONE chip to get a seat.
Thinking about it now, if this is a HUGE satty like the WSOP Main or a HUGE WPT event of EPT Main, I’m not BSing from UTG, I’m folding 66 and will wait for a BETTER SPOT.
You have 15bb, even though you WOULD have won the hand if you jammed. Most likely, the AQ jams as well and the JJ would prob call all so. Think about that stack you COULD have had.
But, you fold and still have a chance. I think about some of the PRO’s on here and believe they would say, BETTER SPOT and fold.
Again, LIVE reads and flow and a bit different then online.
July 12, 2013
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I may be a nit but I just fold this here. Especially if there are deep stacks at the table.
Steve as far as the Push/Fold you have to be really careful with those in satties. We don’t have to make optimal push folds… We just simply have to make top x spots. At 15bbs I’m pretty comfortable for the time being. I’d rather be shoving worse hands from LP and stealing blinds.
January 20, 2014
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florianm1 – You are absolutely right! That is 12.5% antes. I’m embarrassed to admit I’ve been playing on ACR for almost a year, and I thought that all their antes were 10%. I just went back through my database and checked. When the antes first kick in they are 10%, then at certain levels they go up to 12.5%, then they go down to 9.3%. They are all over the place. I never noticed that. I must have done a quick calculation a year ago on one of the levels and then just assumed that they were 10% across the whole tournament. That’s what I get for assuming.
Aaron – I agree that when it comes to satties we have to be careful about blindly following a push / fold chart nearish the bubble. But I don’t think that comes into play here when only 16 win a seat and there are still 90 left, does it? We only have 15bb. We are going to have to make several moves and double up a time or two to get a seat.
July 12, 2013
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Steve – Well it comes into play the whole tournament. I’m not a sattie whiz… But I’ll pass up a lot of +EV spots to lower variance knowing that the point of the tournament isn’t to get all the chips or even accumulate. The point is to have 1 chip when bubble bursts. So having 5bbs on the bubble can be piles if there are a bunch of stacks shorter… So at 15bb I’m not using anything near a push/fold regardless of how far from the bubble. As the tournie goes on and stacks get shorter it gets easier to find your spots… But at 15bbs and not close I’m still not even considering this spot. And the reason I like to push worse hands from LP and just steal is for all the same reasons… Unless you run right into it… People know they shouldn’t be calling very. So why try and run it through 7 other people when you get the same value pushing LP and winning same amount of chips but only having 2-3 to go through? Maybe someone can tell me I’m I don’t know what I’m talking about… But I’m pretty confident i’m not pushing anywhere near as wide as the charts in satties… Especially w 15bbs… (Also, this are all assuming I know nothing about players, if I know the table is folding too much then there are strategies and if it’s playing too loose there are also strategies to use.)
May 30, 2012
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Well said everyone. Def agree with Sig & Lap. The dynamics are different in a LIVE satty I think.
January 20, 2014
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Well maybe you’re right Aaron. I always started adjusting my push fold strategy when I was about double the people to a ticket. So for this hand example, there are 16 players getting a ticket, then I follow the push/fold chart until we get to 32 players. At that point, I start doing what you are saying. I don’t know where I got that from. I think it was just my own little rule. Too loose for a satty?
But I would never have given it a second thought when we are at 90 players. In my mind, we are soooo far from a ticket, I am just playing a regular tournament until we get to 32. Maybe that’s way too loose?
April 30, 2015
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Excellent discussions! Thanks guys!! The “satellite” factor was still there, but not this early when there is 80 players and 16 win a seat. I usually calculate the chip average when we will be around 25 players and try to stay at least half of that. In that sense, satellite helps me play lesser number of hands than a regular tourney where I am hell-bent on not just min-cashing.
July 12, 2013
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Ya I’m conscious of it all the time Steve… Maybe I’m opposite of you and too tight… But I’ve played too many satties where I’ve ran 10-20bbs and less the whole thing and had no problems. The pressure of wanting to chip up is never really there.. I just want to see the number of players left continue to fall.
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