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March 9, 2014
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This was live tournament, 2250€ buyin, few months ago. I was discussing with my friends about this hand and as always opinions are different. It was really tough table, for sure toughest that I played in, after I was looking who these players are it was even tougher 🙂
I think it was 7th level, sth like 200/400/50. I had ~20k from starting 30k. I was playing nitty.
In this hand I was btn where I got JJ. UTG (Irish highstakes online pro, not really active, around starting stack) opens, MP (American pro, ~1,3mil winnings, 3betted already with J8s, really active when he was at the table, a lot of time he was sitting out) 3betted to ~2,2k or sth like that. I wanted to close this hand preflop, I didnt feel comfortable playing postflop against any guy here. I reraised to ~5,5k, UTG folds, MP after a bit more than 1min thinking shoved his ~30k.
Call, fold? Maybe just flat preflop and play postflop against (most probably) two opponents?
December 28, 2012
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My thoughts on this for what they're worth (given that I don't play these stakes):
On the one hand he's 3bet an UTG raiser but on the other he's been active and shown a propensity to 3bet light. He'll be aware of his image and so, from his point of view, I don't think you need a hand anywhere near as strong as JJ to consider a 4bet here, OTB.
I like the 4bet pre over flatting with 50BBs.
When he 5bet rips the first thing that jumps to my mind is is he capped or would he play AA this way? I'm not convinced, unless he only gives you credit for 4betting premiums in a spot where you can/should be much lighter.
I think he has 99 or TT here, for example, somewhat more often than he has AA or KK (there are also more combos of say AK and AQ than pairs obv.), and I would not be folding JJ.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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Cold 4betting JJ in the hopes that everyone folds doesn’t really make sense. If you think everyone will fold to the cold 4bet, then do it with a junkier hand that you couldn’t consider calling. If you’re going to fold to a shove, then it really doesn’t matter that you have JJ when you make this play.
I think just cold calling the 3bet and going from there will be best.
December 28, 2012
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I'm defo not 4betting if my plan is to fold to a 5bet but do you not think given dynamics we can 4bet to GII vs this villain 50bigs effective? I think our 4bet will get flatted on occasions too if villain gets funky/stubborn, which is another good outcome for us. I think this is a pretty good spot to 4bet with AXs type hands etc., so JJ should be near the top of our 4betting range.
October 6, 2010
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i think this is a great hand to flat, i dont see why we need to 4bet here as it just puts us in a world of hurt.
March 9, 2014
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I guess I am wrong here, but my 4bet range would be JJ+ and AK and I felt they know this. Also I must admit I did mistake here because I didnt make any plan what if Irish guy call/raise and what if American guy raise/call. I was just expecting them to fold because this was my first hand after a long time.
October 6, 2010
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if you think they know exactly what your range is, then it means they can play perfectly against you. that makes another reason to flat, as it keeps your range wider and harder to play against. also allows you to keep the pot smaller, and play in position, all good things if you feel like you have a skill disadvantage (or in general really)
as foucoalt said, if you think they are just going to fold because you have been nitting it up, seems like a perfect time to throw a few bluffs in there. find a hand with some sort of decent blocker value and postflop playability when called, like a suited ace, or KQ suited, and add this to your 3betting or even cold 4betting range.
wont seem like much, but it will make you much harder to play against.
March 9, 2014
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Well, after his long thinking he outplayed me like a small kid. It was really tough to put him on a range, but I was expecting him to just light 4bet me with AA and KK. I admit his Hollywood was also part of decision to call and of course his previous hands that went to showdown. Unfortunately he had AA and I busted out.
Thanks for your opinions guys!
December 28, 2012
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He would have owned my soul! Thanks for posting!
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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bennymacca said:
as foucoalt said
Now we are even for the Benny Macaca thing!
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December 6, 2012
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Rok said:
I guess I am wrong here, but my 4bet range would be JJ+ and AK and I felt they know this. Also I must admit I did mistake here because I didnt make any plan what if Irish guy call/raise and what if American guy raise/call. I was just expecting them to fold because this was my first hand after a long time.
You generally shouldn't be stacking off with the bottom of your range in any situation. So if JJ is the worst hand you would 4-bet, it's probably not a hand you should stack off with. This is one of the reasons to have a light 4-betting range: it serves to protect some of the hands you 4-bet for what might be called thin value. You need to have a 4-bet-fold range or else why would your opponent ever stick it in pre with less than KK? You can either 4-bet-fold hands like Axs and then get it in with JJ+/AK, or you're going to be stuck 4-bet-folding (or making a bad stackoff) with JJ.
May 20, 2013
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“You generally shouldn't be stacking off with the bottom of your range in any situation”
This has helped me so much, I should write it across the top of my monitor!
October 6, 2010
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Foucault said:
bennymacca said:
as foucoalt said
Now we are even for the Benny Macaca thing!
haha fair enough 😀
June 23, 2014
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Hmmm….
June 23, 2014
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Rok said:
This was live tournament, 2250€ buyin, few months ago. I was discussing with my friends about this hand and as always opinions are different. It was really tough table, for sure toughest that I played in, after I was looking who these players are it was even tougher 🙂
I think it was 7th level, sth like 200/400/50. I had ~20k from starting 30k. I was playing nitty.
In this hand I was btn where I got JJ. UTG (Irish highstakes online pro, not really active, around starting stack) opens, MP (American pro, ~1,3mil winnings, 3betted already with J8s, really active when he was at the table, a lot of time he was sitting out) 3betted to ~2,2k or sth like that. I wanted to close this hand preflop, I didnt feel comfortable playing postflop against any guy here. I reraised to ~5,5k, UTG folds, MP after a bit more than 1min thinking shoved his ~30k.
Call, fold? Maybe just flat preflop and play postflop against (most probably) two opponents?
Okay, based on image alone, this makes 4-bet with the intention of GII a subpar play IMO. You mention you were playing nitty, and assuming these two guys are competent, you 4-betting after a UTG open and early position 3-bet should scream that his range is ahead of yours after the 5-bet shove. The American Pro prolly wouldn't be getting out of line knowing you've been pretty nitty up to this point anyway.
I mean, he 3 bet someone from early position who WASN'T active up to this point…If the Irish pro was being active, then the argument that the American Pro is 3-betting light in this situation makes sense, and an argument for 4-betting could be made as a value raise.
This makes flatting a good play with the intention of calling a C-bet to evaluate Villain's turn play.
It would also be important to note WHO the American Pro was 3-betting with the J8s hand. There might be some metagame going on or just him keeping some other active openers in check.
March 9, 2014
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Great post! Absolutely agree with everything you wrote, at that time I just wasnt thinking about all these things. With my image he is not just splashing chips around for sure. J8s hand was against German pro (2 EPT FT) and looked like they know each other very well, they were talking all the time and so on.
Thank you once again, really learned a lot from this hand guys!!
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