November 4, 2013
Hello and good morning.
I played a live tourney last night, 15$ buyin t5K (+ t2k for being early) with 5$ bounty and one 15$ t5K addon without being felted. 32 entries with 1st place taking $240 through sixth taking $55. I sat in seat 1 and will give some history/reads on most of the table, especially the villain, who I actually like playing with. Probably a sign of his skill.
Blinds are at 1000/2000 with no antes. Players are, briefly and with approximated stacks:
S1) Me, Hero, 25K. To half the table, my image is pretty strong in my opinion, but no one thinks I'm anything special, especially with an unimpressive stack – aggressive, adaptive, probably on the tight side. The other half includes the villain, and they have no reads on me, as this is probably the sixth or seventh hand of the FT. They probably noticed that I didn't take any shots yet.
S2) 25K, No reads, quiet friendly old man.
S3) Villain, 50K. one of two players whom I recognize as regulars of this place, and of cardroom bars in the area in general. Talkative and joke telling Asian man whose play is very aggressive and loose, and actually unpredictable. He doesn't frequently check back multiway all-in hands post flop “to help eliminate players” and such. He is the only person I've ever seen deny an otherwise unanimous agreement to pay the bubble without seeming to piss off other players. He does of course piss off some players when he plays them for their chips, as I've seen once or twice, but in general the other regulars and barstaff seem to like him.
S4) 8k, playing very tight, seemingly placing a lot of emphasis on cashing. I do not know him and he could actually be a total ninja and pro. No reason to assume, though. Facial piercings and about 35 years old.
S5) 75k, the other player whom I recognize as a regular. Quiet and often using his phone to text or talk while playing. Loose and plenty aggressive preflop – however more the sticky calling, floating, hero calling type. You can't bluff him easily. He and the Villain have much respect for each other.
S6) 75k, a player I was with all night from our previous table. I believe him to be an ok player but with far too much ego and probably some faulty decision making processes. He can be loose and aggressive but he can also get very attached to flopped mid pairs or hands like AK preflop. It seems he believes he is awesome at poker and awesome in general.
S7) 40K, no reads, older man with a cool cowboy hat
S8) 30k, no reads, middle aged
Here is what happens. 6-7 hands into the FT, after 9th place busts, I'm on the BB, (I have 25k behind, after posting BB). Seat 2 folds and Seat 3, the talented personality who usualy has chips but doesn't play reckless poker goes all in UTG+1. (shoulda said +1 in the title) I have vague memory of him doing something like this on previous nights, and if I am right, he does this with a very narrow range. I believe he will be no weaker than TT+, AK, maybe AQ. Everyone folded to me and I tanked. He continued his dialogue with me – chummy, uninvasive – I asked him a question or two, he told me he would happily show the cards if I folded. I believed him and have seen him voluntarily show good holdings plenty of times. I folded, did not show my AK, and he flipped over QQ. There was no rabbit.
Any comments?
I was confident that he would not do this with anything AJ or below, and I found AQ unlikely. Everything else has me hoping, and my stack of 12.5BB actually felt pretty decent in this non-ante FT environment. I know I could have used a double up. Should I not have felt so comfortable keeping my 12.5BB stack? Should I have put him on a wider range?
Thanks for reading!
November 4, 2013
I'm not going to really respond so much to the question asked, as I am going to ask a few for myself. The call/fold here is entirely up to you. I, personally, am never folding. I'll take the risk of busting on the bubble in a spot where I'm holding a premium hand. I play to win. If you play for a min cash, then this very well might be a fold. Probably not, but it might be.
#1: Why would you assume players in a 15$ tournament would really be paying attention to how you are playing? I am actually quite shocked you have this good of notes. The daily that I used to play was 60$, and while I have notes like this on players, I would surmise that 90% of the “regs” have little to no concept of player classifications. The majority of low stake live players aren't playing you for your cards. They are playing theirs. They have top pair and a decent (9+) kicker, they are probably calling off their stack. It's possible my card room is just that bad, and folks elsewhere just don't have it that nice. The reason I asked this was that they would notice you hadn't taken any shots in 7 hands…. seems trivial to me to fold 7 hands in a row.
#2: Why would you ever agree to pay the bubble? I ask, because again my local casino has a history of doing this. I am one of 3 players who refuses to pay the bubble. I would have no problem altering the pay out to pay that person, but I don't feel I should have to put more money into a pot just because I've made it this far.
The most common reasoning I have heard is so that play doesn't stall out. It's bogus, because if you are in the habit of paying the bubble, then play just stalls one place earlier. If players realize they have to actually make the money to make the money, they become a lot less likely to just flat stall in hopes of min cashing.
Just two of my thoughts, thought they might make for interesting conversations.
November 4, 2013
Thanks for the response OneMoreTime
You seem pretty confident that I should have called if I'm playing to win. I trust your opinion but I'm wondering why it feels like it makes enough sense to fold? Is it because I'm considering a single villain's shove to be too tight a range, and I should believe that I have more equity calling with AK? Or more because I'm over valuing my 12.5BB stack, and that I'm not reacting to how small/weak it is? Anything in particular else?
I do raise the question of whether or not ante-free play comes into consideration. 12.5BB has a higher M when there are no antes. Also, with the initial pot smaller, doesn't an UTG+1 player with a medium/big stack have far less reason to pile in 25BB, 2 big stacks behind him?
I don't know what the best answer is as to why pay the bubble if you are a very good player, but my best guess for why you might is:
Because if you attend a certain poker room regularly, you do want to win $ but you also want to help maintain player base – particularly with weaker players. I think a weak to average player is more likely to want to keep coming back if they make their money back their first time (or any time) or know they can more easily make their money back at this particular place because it tends to consider paying the bubble/be friendly and softer etc.
So I think from a dollar standpoint you are right, but maybe not from a social gaming standpoint? /shrug And of course I'm not telling you that you should be agreeing to it. I agree to it probably because of both my being only decent at poker, but also because of the social factor I mentioned above. I don't start the conversation, but I'll just accept when the question gets to me. I don't think one is worthy of scorn just for saying no, but I do notice that scorn seems to be the reaction one gets.
Whichever factor seems more important (or even existent) to you is the factor you should go with.
November 4, 2013
I think you are probably over valuing your stack. However, if your gut is saying fold, then fold. I can't count the times I wish I had listened to my gut instinct in spots like that. Villians range is likely a lot more weighted to his top end in this spot given the dynamics.
This one is going to come down to a “live feel”. To say I was never folding is actually incorrect. I can think of exactly 2 players out of the 100 or so regs I used to play with I would fold this too. Because their shove would of been KK+. So if that's the feel or read you have from this player, it's probably a fold. The fact he rolls over QQ is arbitrary. Would you feel any different about your fold if he rolled over TT?
As for paying the bubble – I 100% understand the social aspect. I will openly say it raises more than a few hairs when I won't agree to pay the bubble (that did wear off over time, and players just accept it now. I allow them to pay a bubble if they still want, and if I'm the bubble, they keep their extra money – more incentive to try and bust me :)). My response to the social aspect is that I no longer play poker to make friends. I have enough poker friends that always seem to need to borrow money….
Ante's 100% make a difference. If there were ante's involved here, this is a snap call all day long no matter who the opponent is. You are absolutely right about your “M” value being stronger here without antes, however AK is an auto call with an “M” of 4. It's been a while since I worked in “M”, but I believe that you can profitably play any two cards with something like 2.5M – might even be as high as 3.5.
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