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Live- first hand of the final table
harby33
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January 21, 2013 - 10:45 am
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Yesterday I was playing in a live $150 buy-in 10k guar. and we had just reached the unofficial final table. There were 111 runners, with 8k starting stacks, so 888,000 in play. I started this hand as the chip leader with 178k and was in the small blind. Blinds were at 3,000/6,000 with a 1k ante. The bb, who was playing a decent tight aggressive game, but I had only played with shorthanded, had 65k.

It is folded to the hijack and a lady (likely in her early 40s), who I had played with for about an hour, limped. She had been limp folding a lot of hands, playing very passive, and playing very poorly overall. She had gotten very frustrated with me shorthanded as she was in the small during my big and I kept punishing her limps. She finally started folding. She had roughly 95-105k.

The button, a very aggressive but seemingly smart player, limps as well. I had played at him on a few tables and he was always playing position, but also played a lot of pots. He had just made a comment about “hating that the money was on his left” so I know he was conscious of position. He had just lost a huge pot shorthanded and was only sitting around 60k. I was very surprised by his limp, but I think he was hoping to take advantage of the two weaker opponents in the pot.

I look down at AKcc. It’s obvious a raise, imo. I choose to raise to 21k, maybe a bit large, but I also wanted to put pressure on the short stacks to push and feel like they have some fold equity, but also wanted the woman to string along with a weaker hand (she had been calling very marginal with hands like jq off in these positions). Thoughts on this raise sizing?

The bb calls, the lady folds, and the button calls. So both villains have around 40-45k. The flop comes out A48 two diamonds. What do you do now?

Maybe I said too much about the hand and sizing, but I’m most interested on my preflop raise sizing and how you all would approach the flop. Have fun!

jjpregler
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January 21, 2013 - 4:30 pm
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delete double post

jjpregler
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January 21, 2013 - 4:32 pm
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I shove this preflop all day.  You have a 29Bb stack, but the effective stack size is only 16 – 17 BBs and with antes in play and two limpers, this is an easy shove for 17BBs.  

Postflop, the pot is over 60k with 45k stacks, you only have one choice.  All in. 

mcorbett79
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January 22, 2013 - 9:25 am
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In the first paragraph you say the BB is a decent tag that then flats 1/3 of his stack from the blinds. This screams idiot or monster and you had already decided he’s not an idiot. Feels like BB is hoping to trap some more money in the pot with a smooth call. That being said I shove flop and say nh when he rolls over AA.

In an online tourney I agree with jjpregler about shoving pre due to effective stack sizes. Live, however, on the first hand of the final table most people are just glad shorthanded is over so they can nit it up again. They arent usually going to get involved without the goods, which makes this raise look like a shove to opponents. I assume you were calling a raise and or cbetting 100%.

The button may be hoping he can use his positional advantage( a joke with his stack) to take the pot away if the blinds whiff.

Now reveal the BB was set mining with 44 and the button caught up with 5d6d so I feel dumb about my read.

jjpregler
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January 22, 2013 - 10:16 am
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I don't play online.  I play live.  This is a preflop shove live as well as online.

mcorbett79
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January 22, 2013 - 10:51 am
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On a purely theoretical tangent now… Is there no merit to raising pre and shoving any flop? There is no way we are ever folding pre, so if we induce a shove so be it. What if they play bad( possible right) and call with 99 hoping no overs come or are scared to push AJ because they don’t like their kicker. The 99 folds thier hand on this flop and the AJ yells yahtzee and calls your shove. On a QT2 flop they both fold to your flop shove and now nurse a 5BB stack for three orbits complaining that they never hit a flop. I guess I need to know what they are calling a shove with vs what they are calling with playing fit or fold. I think if the ranges are tweaked just right we could ocassionaly show a larger profit with less variance by raising pre planning to shove all flops.

harby33
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January 22, 2013 - 10:54 am
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I'm liking the discussion so far, but won't interject yet. I am not sure how I messed this up, but the lady actually called preflop as well! That doesn't change anything on my preflop, but it does effect how I handle the flop as it was played.

mcorbett79
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January 22, 2013 - 11:19 am
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Reasons #1-47 for shoving pre. We now have 24 callers from three different tables. This is starting to sound like a bad beat story…

If there are ten players at 1K ante plus four saw the flop for 21K each, we have a 94K pot and tptk with only one pot sized stack behind. The small stacks I would already consider all in at this point and bet 50K while staring straight at the lady letting her know the bet was meant for her.

harby33
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January 22, 2013 - 11:41 am
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The outcome of the hand is irrelevant. I just want input on preflop raising sizes and postflop raise size as played.

 

Thank you for your input so far.

mcorbett79
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January 22, 2013 - 12:31 pm
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I think the best thing would be to ask yourself what you are trying to accomplish with this hand. Folding pre and calling pre are both bad so raising is obv. Now that you have decided to raise, do you want a call? How many? What is you’re best/worst case. Is there any way to avoid worst case by changing bet sizing? If you don’t go all in and are called, how do you proceed on the flop?
Most of these questions need an answer before you announce your raise. Sorry, but I’ve never liked the “always shove” “always 2.25x +2bb for limpers” type of answers. Even if shoving pre is right in this spot, I feel it’s best to think about as many different lines as possible.
Was this in Indiana? I’m from KY and if this is a weekly I would probably be able to join you for one.

harby33
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January 22, 2013 - 12:34 pm
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It was in Indiana. At the Hollywood casino. Pretty good structure and turn out. Nice poker room and good dealers as well. On the last Sunday of every month they have a $300 25k guar. and said it has been brining in enough players that the winner is getting between 10-11k lately. Let me know if you plan on going sometime and we will meet up!

jjpregler
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January 22, 2013 - 4:21 pm
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Mathematical reason why me must shove:  If we raise to 25k and the deeper player pushes all in for 105k we have to call 80k to win 160k and getting 2:1 we are pot committed to call with even our bluffs.  Leaving us in a spot that unbalances our range.  This means we either need to shove the bluffs or not have a bluffing range at all here.  shoving the bluffs and raising with our premium hands is super exploitable.

I mean shoving is so standard, I can't even fathom any other play being more profitable for our range of possible hands from this spot.  This is a good spot to shove all in as a bluff.  It is super standard.  so why would you want to deviate with your premium hands?  That is a recipe to leave yourself open to exploitation.  

mcorbett79
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January 22, 2013 - 9:28 pm
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You say this is a good spot to bluff and I believe you because I don’t think a shove is getting called light. That being said, what % should we be shoving here? I started out as a cash game player, so I need work on short stack play.

Unless we play at this casino often, and the final table is full of regs, why do we need a balanced range here? We just saw two players make super bad calls and we’re going to worry about opening ourselves up to exploitation? It doesn’t seem like they are experienced players capable of recognizing exploitable opportunities.
Please don’t take offense, as I am here to learn. Thanks.

rivermen123

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January 24, 2013 - 4:10 pm
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harby33 said:

Yesterday I was playing in a live $150 buy-in 10k guar. and we had just reached the unofficial final table. There were 111 runners, with 8k starting stacks, so 888,000 in play. I started this hand as the chip leader with 178k and was in the small blind. Blinds were at 3,000/6,000 with a 1k ante. The bb, who was playing a decent tight aggressive game, but I had only played with shorthanded, had 65k.

It is folded to the hijack and a lady (likely in her early 40s), who I had played with for about an hour, limped. She had been limp folding a lot of hands, playing very passive, and playing very poorly overall. She had gotten very frustrated with me shorthanded as she was in the small during my big and I kept punishing her limps. She finally started folding. She had roughly 95-105k.

The button, a very aggressive but seemingly smart player, limps as well. I had played at him on a few tables and he was always playing position, but also played a lot of pots. He had just made a comment about “hating that the money was on his left” so I know he was conscious of position. He had just lost a huge pot shorthanded and was only sitting around 60k. I was very surprised by his limp, but I think he was hoping to take advantage of the two weaker opponents in the pot.

I look down at AKcc. It’s obvious a raise, imo. I choose to raise to 21k, maybe a bit large, but I also wanted to put pressure on the short stacks to push and feel like they have some fold equity, but also wanted the woman to string along with a weaker hand (she had been calling very marginal with hands like jq off in these positions). Thoughts on this raise sizing?

The bb calls, the lady folds, and the button calls. So both villains have around 40-45k. The flop comes out A48 two diamonds. What do you do now?

Maybe I said too much about the hand and sizing, but I’m most interested on my preflop raise sizing and how you all would approach the flop. Have fun!

 

I haven’t read any of the replies so sorry if someone else said this already….

I like your preflop sizing. It is bizarre that the big blind, who you said is TAG, cold calls for a third of his stack. LOL live poker.

I’m checking the flop because they have significantly less than a pot sized bet left. You can induce bluffs (as well as get it in against hands that weren’t folding anyway).

If they flop a flush draw, they’re probably shoving flop, so if it checks through and a third diamond hits, your hand is still quite likely to be good. At that point a minbet (yes, a minimum bet of 6k into ~70k) is kind of sexy IMO. You can induce them to spazz with a single diamond and get it in very bad.

 

Edit: just saw that the lady called too. Not totally sure what I'd do in that case.

rivermen123

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January 24, 2013 - 4:20 pm
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mcorbett79 said:

I think the best thing would be to ask yourself what you are trying to accomplish with this hand. Folding pre and calling pre are both bad so raising is obv. Now that you have decided to raise, do you want a call? How many? What is you're best/worst case. Is there any way to avoid worst case by changing bet sizing? If you don't go all in and are called, how do you proceed on the flop?
Most of these questions need an answer before you announce your raise. Sorry, but I've never liked the “always shove” “always 2.25x +2bb for limpers” type of answers. Even if shoving pre is right in this spot, I feel it's best to think about as many different lines as possible.
Was this in Indiana? I'm from KY and if this is a weekly I would probably be able to join you for one.

Raising preflop sets up a stack to pot ratio that allows you to comfortably stack off when you flop a pair. Generally, that's what you're trying to accomplish when you're fairly shallow stacked with a hand like AK. In this situation, though, stacks are so shallow that no matter what we do we're going to have an extremely low SPR on the flop.

I guess I prefer shoving pre to other options, but I can't hate too hard on the way this hand was played. Your opponents are going to make a lot of awful flatting mistakes in spots where they'd fold to an all-in.

The fact that stacks are this shallow makes this hand weird, but easy to play nonetheless. Once you flop an ace or king with this SPR, you can't even consider folding at any point.

I have no idea what to do if we miss the flop here though. I guess we can open jam some flops and check/fold others.

Horrible shortstack play by our opponents makes us face some awkward spots in live tourneys.

rivermen123

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January 24, 2013 - 4:24 pm
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jjpregler said:

Mathematical reason why me must shove:  If we raise to 25k and the deeper player pushes all in for 105k we have to call 80k to win 160k and getting 2:1 we are pot committed to call with even our bluffs.  Leaving us in a spot that unbalances our range.  This means we either need to shove the bluffs or not have a bluffing range at all here.  shoving the bluffs and raising with our premium hands is super exploitable.

I mean shoving is so standard, I can't even fathom any other play being more profitable for our range of possible hands from this spot.  This is a good spot to shove all in as a bluff.  It is super standard.  so why would you want to deviate with your premium hands?  That is a recipe to leave yourself open to exploitation.  

I think exploitability/balance is a complete non-issue in a live donkament like this one. You're playing against people who are completely clueless.

P-aire 146
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January 24, 2013 - 8:14 pm
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I agree with Rivermen and JJ………  In a live donkament, I shove ALL DAY in this spot.  with AK, I'm fine getting it all in vs any of them.  If they are willing to gamble vs me in this spot and go out in 10th or 9th, lets gooooooooo.  Rivermen is right, anyone who opens limps or limps with 1/3 of their stack in this spot is completely clueless.  Please provide them the information to this site for the can BUY a clue………

harby33
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January 31, 2013 - 10:23 am
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P-aire, but I don't want them to improve! I want them to keep giving me money 🙂 haha

 

After this hand I was trying to figure out if I was mad due to results or my play. Yes, it did end up being a bad beat, but that's beside the point. My initial thought to raising to 21k was that I was hoping one of the shorter stacks would stack off, believeing my bet was just due to the limping and that they had some fold equity. I also had seen the button play very aggressive with dead money in the pot and thought that if the lady called wide enough he would shove and I could come over the top. When the sb and the lady both called, I believe the button was thinking “why not”.

 

After the tourney was over, I was talking to my friend Jon and definitely started agreeing that shoving pre is by far the optimal play here. I could still get one of the shorter stacks to come along believing I am shoving weak to pick up the dead money, plus I am challenging everyone in the pot to put their tourney life on the line. Since the table is so short stacked in general, picking up the antes and limps would be very advantagous.

 

Instead, 57dd called from the small blind, the lady called jq off but folded to my bet on the flop, and the button called with A10 off. When I put the 40k in on the flop the sb snap pushed his 45k, lady folded, and the button sighed and thought for a minute before going all in too. It ran runner runner diamond and the A10 won with the 10 of diamonds.

 

As played, I think the 40k bet was correct as I am never getting away from the hand. If, for some strange reason, I checked both of the other players are getting it in there and I doubt I'm ever folding.

 

Looking back, given the stack sizes and the way it would extremely negatively impact the small stack sizes, take away from one of the decent sized stacks at the table, and help me build my lead while maintaining that I don't mind getting it in with any of the players in the pot with AKss, I should have been pushing pre there. Stack sizes just justify it.

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