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I was just in the final 6 (of 115) at the Aria in a daily $125 buy in. The two on my left were both pros who have been traveling the circuit and back in Vegas for the bracelet events. I was on the button in this hand with apx. 135k in chips and the blinds were 3/6k.
Background info: I had been very aggresive on the final table. It had worked out well except probably 6 hands earlier where a guy pushed with second pair and ended up getting runner runner flush on my top two pair. He had already folded out of the hand though. The big blind had been at my table since the final 50 down to this point. When I first came to his table, he was being super super aggresive way overbetting the turn or river to put pressure on shorter stacks. He doubled me up and lost 2 other huge pots to me which really helped me get to this point. He had been very aggressive on flops when he had a good hand, which paid off since he had overbluffed so many bad hands and shown. I hadn't seen him get too out of hand with nothing, but he would overpressure when he had a big draw. He had seen me push in two times in a row with queens and ak suited just hands before this too. Once we got to 6 players, both him and his other pro friend in the small blind complimented my play at that point and he had said “we are having dinner together after this tourney.”
I was on the button with jq off suit and it was folded. I did what had become my standard raise at this level to 14k. He called in the bb, heads up, with about 250k. The flop comes down A108 rainbow. He checked and I checked back, which I had done against him letting him hang himself.
The turn came a J and also brought a flush draw. He led out 10k, I raised to 26k, and he thought a minute before saying “Maybe we won't be going to dinner together tonight.” and his buddy start laughing. He then raised to 60k.
What do you we put him on here and what should our move be? I'll state what my read was and what happened after some input.
I certainly c-bet here after that flop to about 15k. As played though, why are you raising on the turn? Really hate that play. Def should be flatting with 2nd pair and double gutter because now when we get raised what are we going to do? Rip it in? Flat and then if we miss river are we folding? Pot control by flatting turn and then re-evaluate on the river.
ya i agree, i can see checkin back if you have a top pair type hand you want to trap him with and let him hang himself as you say, but here we just have Q high atm, but we do have really good equity with the double gutter, i agrre with J LUDE we need to always be C betting but it can certainly be as small as 15k (smaller depending on how player reacts to sizing, if it doesnt make a diff between 12-20 why not just bet 12), if he flats we can then check back turn for pot control and see a river for cheap, if we get there good if not we can fold the hand and still have over 100k..
as hand goes when he check raises turn i would guess he always has some kind of 2pr+ strength hand, i guess he could be semi bluffing but since flop was rainbow and hes solid player not sure he would pic this spot so i think your usualy up against 2 pair or better…interesting he is just flatting from BB tho, maybe its like TJ type hand, not sure what kinda flatting range he has here espec 6 handed, kinda interesting aspect to think about
October 6, 2010
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this looks to be a like a lot of broadway combos, possibly with some spades.
your check back on the flop has capped your range though, i doubt you ever check back an ace here 3 ways so if villain is good, which from your description sounds like he is, he could put a ton of pressure on you knowing you are never showing up with a huge hand here.
as played i would flat turn, your hand has a huge amount of equity but you can easily get blown off it by raising, as what might have happened here.
i would definitely cbet flop really small too, you then take control and can easily shove with a decent amount of equity if the villain decides to make a play on the flop.
^ OML THIS
betting like 9k to induce a small raise and shipping over it is pretty dreamy……i like a lot
Yeah Jlude, Shaun, and Benny have this hand nailed. The part I hate the most is raising the turn. Obv i love the idea of cbet small to induce raise so we can 3bet shove.
Also do you guys ever just shove pre? Really curious about what the live guys think about that.
i dont think thats good live, people dont rip it in with 18-22bb as liberal as they do online in these spots, this many blinds live is heaps, espec with the longer levels, i think trying to get this hand in preflop in majority of cases here is a big mistake
also benny i disagree a little in you saying it caps his range, i think we can still have plenty of Ax in our range here…are you never checking back liek A5ss on this flop?
Ryan the only time I may consider shoving QJo with 22bb's in this spot is if I feel like I don't have an advantage at my table or the structure of the tournament is extremely poor. Things like that def come into consideration and I feel like a lot of people aren't considering those factors in live tournaments. Like Shawn said a majority of the time it's just not good. I will say that we obv have a ton of FE because live players calling range here is much smaller compared to what it is online. That being said I just don't like it as the times we are getting called we are obv crushed. I disagree with it capping our range as well. This pot is being played HU, if I raised with like A5ss I'm def checking back the flop for pot control and because we get him to barrell and possibly call later streets with worse.
October 6, 2010
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shawnivey said:
also benny i disagree a little in you saying it caps his range, i think we can still have plenty of Ax in our range here…are you never checking back liek A5ss on this flop?
yeah fair point, A5 that picked up the flush draw is definitely in our range still, as is KQ and 79, so there are still some decent hands in our range, i guess i was more talking about good top pair, 2 pair, and sets
ya for sure i get what your saying about us not having any “big hands” and him being able to blast on us easy, but i think when i check this flop back i have a fair amount of weak Ax hands (i am raising every A preflop but def not C betting every flopped top pair)….i am still not raising turn was just raising the point i disagree with us being completly capped here
I really hate the turn raise. When you raise turn you're essentially turning your hand into a bluff. There are not many combinations of hands in his range that can call your turn raise that you are crushing, maybe QT and very unlikely T8. With our pair and double gutter flatting is by far the best play. We keep the pot small with some showdown value and further equity. More importantly we keep all of the bluffs in his range that would be barrelling river cards. I think one table dynamic that isnt fully being considered is just how aggressive the villain is. One way to exploit overly aggressive players is to let them barrell into your made hands. When we raise turn the only thing we are accomplishing is allowing the aggressive player an oppurtunity to blow us off our hand. He won't be flatting with a weaker hand, and we really can't call a 3bet/4bet jam on the turn. I just think both are -ev. I agree with everyone else we should continue our aggression on the flop because we have a lot equity in the hand and fold equity, if he does raise, a 3bet jam would be real nice. Cbetting also allows us a better oppurtunity to get to the river.
pokerkids said:
I really hate the turn raise. When you raise turn you're essentially turning your hand into a bluff. There are not many combinations of hands in his range that can call your turn raise that you are crushing, maybe QT and very unlikely T8.
pretty sure he wasnt raising for value here, just picked a poor spot to semi bluff
if you think about his range for flatting your raise preflop, it really doesnt hit that board at all. He would shove/3bet 88, 1010, aa, a10, and a8 preflop, so the only hand that he could raise flop with that you are behind would be 810ss. I would cbet and almost hope he raises because im going to break my wrist off 3 bet shoving. He could have a weak ace that he didnt want to shove pre, but he would never raise flop with that because he would then be turning his hand into a bluff. if he had the ace, he would just call you down.
meh i agreed with most of your last post this sounds crazy tho, all those hands you mention above are more than in his range…and any hand that has a pair we are behind, and any K high bluff we are behind, i dont think your points are very accurate, we are behind almost every single hand he raises on this flop, which is why it is a good idea to 3 bet pile, as we fold out most the hands we are losing too and he has a hard time continuing with anything but a set or AT, which it is unlikely he has (but def possible)
So if he raises flop over our cbet what range do you put him on? A bad player might raise a weak ace but he is supposedly a decent live pro so we should give him some more credit. No way he flats 88 and 1010 preflop, and a10/a8 are standard shoves preflop especially since the hero has been aggressive.
pokerkids said:
So if he raises flop over our cbet what range do you put him on? A bad player might raise a weak ace but he is supposedly a decent live pro so we should give him some more credit. No way he flats 88 and 1010 preflop, and a10/a8 are standard shoves preflop especially since the hero has been aggressive.
lol you say hes a decent live pro, then you expect him never to mix it up and just play like a robot and you just eliminate all these hands from his range, like nobody ever gets tricky especially with 6 left in the tournament?
hero has 22/23bb to start the hand, anything villian is check raising flop with he is prob gonna figure he gets piled on often…i mean being a decent player and all we recognize the 22bb stack just opend and c bet, and usually this isnt followed by a fold with this stack size….so usually we arnt ahead when we get check raised on the flop here no..
when he check raises flop he can have same hand, any Ax, any 2 pair, or any set, this is hardly ever a bluff getting checkraised but due to our small amount of FE and good equity with double gutter and our stack size, i am prob 3 bet getting it in still for a chance at lots of chips and to be in good shape to ship the tournament, while crippling one of the best players standing, who happens to be to our left making our life difficult.
Yes i do expect him to mix it up, but more so by bluffing an ace high board with air because he knows it puts us in a tough spot if we dont have an ace. Our button range is so wide that we miss this board often enough for a bluff to be profitable. A weak/bad player isnt capable of this play for the most part. And yes, 99% of the time here he NEVER has a set. He's just putting himself in tough spots preflop by flatting 88 and 1010, and it makes no sense to flat aa when he has an aggressive image, meaning a 3 bet would get less respect. He loses so much value because the hero is going to 4 bet jam a ton of worse hands, but may find an excuse not to stack off with them on the flop (if hero misses, or flops middle pair or something).
I think a check raise with air is perfect because our hero has to shove or fold with his stack size, there isnt much room to flat and play the turn. If im the hero, I'm cbetting most of my range (might check back top set or middle pair that i want to pot control), which means im going to be folding to a check raise a decent amount of the time. Hero is still left with about 17bb after the raise preflop and a cbet, which doesnt commit him on the flop. I think the villain has plenty of fold equity.
If the villain check raises something like a5, is he really comfortable calling a 3 bet shove from the hero? Probably not, which means he isnt likely to be raising hands like that, which have a ton of showdown value in this spot, but don't do that great against the hero's get-it-in range on the flop. I do think that the villain could have 810 here for two pair, but not a10 or a8. These hands are fist-pump jams preflop against the hero. There is just too much value in taking down the pot pre, and possibly getting called by a worse hand, than getting “tricky” with a hand that plays marginally oop postflop.
My view, and it aligns with several others. Now as you saw in my other post, not so sure about my thoughts but hey, here are my 2 cents:
I c-bet the flop for 10-14kish depending on table flow for all the reason above. If he does raise us, I do not like the 3bet JAM, I hate losing a tourney on a draw. That said given his call and not raise pre , which would expect an Ax to do six handed, I may have to, hate it, but may have to.
The turn, I think I smoothe call to try to peel the next card, if we pump it up and get raised off our hand we lost what could be great value. So protect your hand a bit and get to the river as cheap as you can. Not to mention you now have some showdown value.
As far as his range, it could be any of these hands Q9, KQ, 9x. I do not think he has any of the J hands KJ, J10, J8, as we are holding one and I think we can eliminate QJ, 8s or 97, given your previous assesment of his play, he would be raising those hands on the flop.
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