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line check in a crappy live $60
jacobsharktank
Florida
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January 18, 2014 - 7:09 pm
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Hey guys. A friend who normally plays 5-10 around Florida invited me to our measly card room near us in Tallahassee where there isn’t much action for him, but he had an itch to play. I played a little 1/2 and got really stoked on live cash again. I forgot how horrible people are. It was really cool to see limps and then raises to 5 from old men with KK. i messed around for an hour and then decided to jump into the nightly tournament. i bought my seat before i realized they had an addon that made the tournament a 33% rake, which was lame but it’s whatever i guess. these mistakes aren’t too costy since i’m assuming i still have an edge around that or higher in a small field tournament that pays what I feel is too many spots (it was 6 of 38). it’s just likely not to be too much more, but oh well. i recognized regs from another card room i used to frequent in monticello. they were all still just as bad, same tendencies, nearly 2 years later. i’m amazed and completely invigorated/motivated again now that i see how slow of a transition it is from these widely known quick to learn skills like hand selection/position to get to the players in a live game in florida. anyway, onto this hand that was against the only even remotely competent player in the tournament that i played against. he’s like 50 something, doesn’t use his image or anything, he just plays against other old people typically and probably calls down against younger people he assumes to be aggressive. at 1/2 i saw him play tons of hands just over limping and cbetting multilimped pots when ast to act and usually take it down. it happened a few orbits in a row, so i know he’s willing to try taking a pot.

effective stacks against him are about 40bb.
it’s at 50/100
i open QTd mp1 250 and old guy flats button and bb flats. bb is old guy who is folding if he misses all flops. he sees a lot of flops if possible but folds unless he hits in some way.

flop with 800 in the middle and effective stacks now at 37.5bb
KcJs2c

BB checks, I cbet 375. Button flats. BB folds.

(I put button on all sorts of draws, decent top pair or second pairs, and then probably ATo because of how I saw him play)

turn 1150
8h

I think I can check/evaluate because I think he’s more likely to take his free card against a young person he sees as aggro. so if he checks, i can bet all blanks. i think he’s going to bet all pairs when checked to, which sort of just lets me check/fold or check/ bet all blanks and then blank A/9 too.

i also think i can bet three streets if rivers blank out on draws because i’m essentially charging draws (because he calls) and then he folds when he can’t call river. it’s expensive, but it’s also just a value bet overall. i’m mentally burnt at the moment, and haven’t checked overall combos, but i feel like there are more draws then Kings and Jacks.

I decided to once again bet to charge his draws (that are folding blank rivers)
Because I’m treating this as a vbet against draws, I thought around half pot was good because hes not getting a right price when he hits (since I can’t bluff the completed draws really).

I bet 575, he calls.

River, 2200 3h
I go through with my river plan and bet 875. He’s calling Jacks and Kings and folding all of his draws. I don’t think he’s folding anything that calls and 875 if I bet bigger, so I don’t need to spend any more chips following through with the bluff.

stacks behind are 3000 and the pot is 2200. I suppose if he values his tourney life he would fold like QJ/TJ to a shove but I think since most of the folds are draws and i can just function with 2200 after. blinds are quick in this tourney, but they don’t go up for another orbit.

basically, line check. i like my thinking, and i guess the only way i wouldn’t is if the combos of pairs outweighs the draw combos that then miss and fold on river, but at the time i thought more were draws.

results don’t affect me if my logic is sound, and he calls KQo. It’s funny because results sometimes make people feel bad plays are then good when they work out and the guy folds, but I felt good when he called and had KQ because it was in the range i assigned and the hand played out.

what does tpe think?

Chuck Blaze
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January 18, 2014 - 9:29 pm
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Preflop : I’m fine with raising here. Good hand to do so and see fl

Flop : 3 handed we have OESD. There are two clubs on board so sometimes when we hit our stragiht we are still beat. Decent amount of K’s and J’s in button range and I think BB is still really wide. I don’t mind betting here cause we don’t mind building a pot for when we hit and sometimes we get Jx hands to fold.

Turn : My radar is up. Button calls and again he has hands that beat us in his range. I agree he also has some club draws but rarely ever a worse straight draw. We really only have 6 outs and given the stakes and nature of players at this stake we have little fold equity. At this stakes players hate folding and so far he’s called pre, called flop, i don’t see many hands he now folds on this turn. I check and depending and if he bets real small (players tend to make mistakes here) I call or if he bets larger I fold. We might see a free river card too cause his line indicates he doesn’t like his hand enough to raise. He prolly should raise lots of hands in hsi range but he doesn’t know better.

River : kind of the same as turn. check fold most of the time. if we hit Ac, 9c i depend on sizing.

2headedmonst
Lighting Money On Fire
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January 18, 2014 - 10:31 pm
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My take is that you might have over estimated the sophistication level of the villain. From my experience with the times I ‘ve played with the type of player you describe in this tournament, he probably isn’t thinking on your level or dissecting a hand the way you are. He is probably just calling you all the way down simply because he has a pair and doesn’t know any better. I could be wrong but that is the feel I get from your post. So against a villain like that, you don’t want to bluff him or try to make him fold because he probably won’t. You just want to make a hand and just value bet the heck out of it. So with that as my general approach to this type of tournament, I probably would have checked/evaluate on turn and river. If you hit your straight then I value bet it. If you don’t then just shut it down. I think your logic and thinking in the hand is fine, but I just wouldn’t try to make that kind of play on a tournament like this. I know that seems weak and pathetic, but I think that is how you play this kind of player. Any thoughts? If I am wrong then please let me know.

jacobsharktank
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January 18, 2014 - 11:06 pm
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are we saying that there aren’t more draws that fold the river? like i know i have a draw myself, but i’m really just assuming he calls me with K or J and folds rivers with his missed draws. I don’t think it even relies on villain’s sophistication. i just autoassumed he has more flush draws/straightdraws, +like AT than he has K or J and all the other hands will call down and then fold river. The way i see it is if i just keep betting, i’m getting money when he has a drawn and folds, because he’s going to call draws just as he’s going to call pairs. i’m betting well aware i’m behind everything that’s calling me unless blank 9 or A hits, but really my whole plan here is based in his range and not my hand. his range here is K J and draws. i win against his draws when they fold. i win against his pairs when i hit. i lose when he has pairs and i miss. if more of his hands are draws than pairs, then what i just explained holds true logically. me betting when behind doesn’t really matter when he folds Ace high on the river. I guess I should find the combos.

i started it out just now and then deleted it after i realized i couldn’t keep track of how many K or T or J were involved. it’s been a long week. i’m going to bed and will do this tomorrow.

2headedmonst
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January 18, 2014 - 11:34 pm
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I don’t disagree really with anything that you are saying about betting against his range. I haven’t done the math on it but you are probably right. I’m just saying in a tournament like this that you don’t need to take the risk of the times he has a K or J and you miss your draw. You can wait for better spots to get chips in because they will pay you off. Maybe my read on this tournament is wrong, but against these type of opponents my goal is to make a hand and get paid. I don’t need to risk betting turn and river here because I know I’ll get paid off in other hands I play. I don’t think your play is “wrong,” I just don’t think you need to make it here. In other tournaments against better opponents I think your play is fine. Maybe I’m wrong, but that is my take on this one.

Chuck Blaze
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January 19, 2014 - 12:50 pm
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Here is how I’m ranging the opponent here.
22,AdKd,AhKh,AsKs,AcQc,KhQh,KsQs,AcJc,KdJd,KhJh,QhJh,QcJc,AcTc,QhTh,QsTs,QcTc,Ac9c,Ac8c,
Ac7c,Ac6c,Ac5c,Ac4c,Ac3c,Ac2c,AdKh,AdKs,AhKd,AhKs,AsKd,AsKh,AcKd,AcKh,AcKs,KdQh,KdQs,KdQc,
KhQd,KhQs,KhQc,KsQd,KsQh,KsQc,KdJh,KdJs,KdJc,KhJd,KhJc,KsJd,KsJh,KsJc,QhTs,QhTc,QsTh,QsTc

Our equity on this flop is 31 % against that range. That is what I perceive villain to be willing to call at least two streets with here. Again you are overestimating the thought process of villain and generally kind of leveling yourself with some misapplied concepts here. I love that you are thinking but your thoughts are a little jumbled and the concepts you are talking about it seems you don’t understand fully.

Turn 8h : Our equity has now dropped to 22 %
River 3d : Our equity has now dropped to 6 %.

As we can see from my range there are just as many if not more combos of non draws than draws and even the draws villain has have tons of equity against us.

This is alot of analysis for this spot.
Simply it comes down to this level and we need to be going to max value with our value hands. We level ourselves regarding the dynamic and made a very spewy move in this spot. Flop bet is fine, turn bet is borderline at best. River bet is bad.

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