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Learning to double barrel - ATo in MP with 20BB

derSchwartz

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January 5, 2015 - 10:02 pm

Hello,

A few weeks ago I decided that I probably don't bluff or double barrel enough. In fact, I may not be double barrelling ever, because if I'm only doing it when I have the goods, that's hardly barrelling at all. I realize that when I C-bet, if they call, I frequently give up when I don't have it or improve.

The hand history reader isn't working ATM, so I'll describe. It's 8 handed, after the addon phase of a 2$ turbo rebuy/addon MTT. I'm doing ok, having shown down a good made hand or two, getting value. The blinds are 500/1000/100 and this comes up:

UTG: 19k

UTG+1: 10k

MP: Hero, 20k

HJ: 6k

CO: 21k

BTN: 18k

SB: 7k

BB: Villain, 23k, only 40 hands on him, but he could be tight, playing 14/10, no limping or 3betting. He called 1 of 1 cbets.

Folds to me, I open A spade T heart to 2000, it folds to the BB and he calls.

I believe he would be reraising with his very good holdings, and put him on 22-77, A2-A8, K5s-KJs, K8o-KJo, Q8s-QTs, Q9o-QJo, JT, or so. Naturally, I have all these thoughts the instant he calls, before the flop even comes down!

Flop is 5 spade 6 heart 7 spade

Pot is 5300, BB checks

Not a good flop for either of our ranges, better for his than mine. But I do have the Ace of spades giving me some protection against the flush draw. I decide this is a good time to Cbet and that since he is tight, I can Cbet smallish.

Hero bets 2000, BB calls,

Turn is 5 heart ,

Pot is 9300, BB checks,

Too small? He could be trapping, with sets or with premiums that I hadn't placed in his original range. But more importantly, he could be calling with flush or straight draws, perhaps with hands I'm ahead of. Maybe he actually does have a floating range, or called because I bet too small on the flop and he will fold to another bet. Any input is appreciated on whether or not this is double barrel time.

Hero bets 4500, BB shoves 19k without much thought.

Hero folds with 11BB left, and remembers a time in 2nd grade when a kid named Oded made fun of his stature.

Thanks for reading!

Foucault

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January 6, 2015 - 9:47 am

I vote no. All of the hands you're talking about getting him to fold are hands you're ahead of anyway. “Maybe he was floating” isn't sufficient justification for firing again, not to mention that especially with these stacks I doubt you're going to see anyone floating you OOP anyway.

Have you seen my bluffing series? I would call this a number 1 spot, MAYBE a 2, but definitely not an any two cards situation (those don't really come up that often). Here's a tip: if you can't think of any reason why your current hand is a good candidate for barreling, you probably shouldn't barrel. It's not just about the spot.

NeverAA

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January 6, 2015 - 10:09 am

I think I also agree on not barrelling although it is one of my biggest weapons. I can even triple barrel comfortably PROVIDED THAT I REALLY KNOW THE GUY.

Also, Andrew pointed out the stack sizes and I think that can remove the possibility that he is floating for the most part.

One more thing I developed is the idea of not having to take down every pot. I think it is important to play good and try to diversify your game with barrelling or other types of bluffs or semi-bluffs, but there is no shame in letting go when we feel the board is not right to take action.

On this kind of board, I most probably cbet and try to control the pot if there is resistance.

However, I would like to discuss something with the people reading this forum and would really appreciate if Andrew can help clarify things.

Here it goes…

I would open here to 2.25x because I kind of feel like big blind would have more tendency to complete to take a flop to a min raise. I know there is not a lot of difference btw 2.25 and 2x, but combined with the table image I have seen a lot of success just taking the pot uncontested as long as bb is not a maniac.

Note: I almost never minraise until almost the final table where stacks are shallow and antes and blinds are high, and all the players kind of have a common ground on min raising all the time.

Just wondering if that 2.25 thing is just something I created in my mind or other folks have seen this work as well.

derSchwartz

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January 6, 2015 - 11:47 pm

Thanks for the responses.

Foucault, when you say this is a 1 or 2 spot, do you mean on the turn, or the flop? I can see now why the turn was not a good place to double barrel, but I feel the flop is a pretty good place to C-bet, because he had such good odds to call pre, could easily have missed the flop and could be ready to fold. I feel I wouldn't mind him folding some hands that are behind me such as broadway air because it's automatic chips and because my hand isn't strong either. If so, was my C-bet too small? I did 2000 because I figure he may be tight and because I don't have that much room to maneuver with my stack.

I am still in the middle of the Bluffing series 🙂

Thanks to both posters for the nugget about villain being too low to float. I did not acknowledge that in game. I will keep a lookout for better spots and post them.

Also I am curious about NeverAA's quesiton as well about 2.25x. I see the obvious reasons to min-raise but I do wonder sometimes if the extra folds we can get from the big blind players by 2.25xing as standard would outweigh the chips we lose when it doesn't work. Perhaps my stack is too small to do this but I would certainly wonder about this in 25bb, 30bb, 50bb stack situations, etc.

mikewebb68

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January 7, 2015 - 12:39 am

To me, you starting stack size to start the hand, and his relative stack size, just make this a bad, bad spot to double barrell, unless you have personally witnessed him call a flop c-bet and fold to a turn barrel with this same stack size (and preferably on more than one occassion).

20 BB stacks are good for some plays (such as 3 bet shoving pre), but to double barrel you'll want a larger stack and an opponent with a larger relative stack as well, imo.

Foucault

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January 7, 2015 - 9:01 am

I meant on the turn, the flop bet is OK although with these stack sizes I could actually see checking just because your hand isn’t good enough to bet-call but you may get check-shoved on by a lot of draws you’re beating.

folding_aces_pre_yo

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January 7, 2015 - 12:02 pm

i have a question

how narrow should hero's bluffing range have to be on the turn?

since this is a number 1 or a number 2 spot at best ott, you're going to need to choose the right bluffing candidates , which will be a monster draw or at the very least a flush draw, which you should be shoving turn with.

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