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November 4, 2013
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This happened late in the WSOP event I ran deep in. It's been bothering me for day, even though I'm happy with how I played the hand. Just want some other players perspectives/ideas about it.
Table has been together for a while, and we are all fairly deep. Blinds are 2/4k 500A.
UTG is on 200K – Solid/tight player, doesn't get out of line much, very capable of stealing
Hero on 315K – Me. I plays pokers lucky
BTN on 385K – Has been VERY aggro. Super 3 bet happy and was using his stack to bully table. It was working until he got too raise happy and lost a 200k pot
SB on 100K – Shortie at table. Aggro player, very well looking for a spot to get his chips in the middle
BB on 295K – Darren Elias, super good online player. Def one of the top players at the table
UTG opens to 8500, Hero looks down to JJ and calls.
This is first spot where I'm not 100% happy with my choice. The idea is to call all 3 bets from BTN (or possibly 4bet him depending on raise size), isolate all shoves from SB when UTG folds/fold with UTG iso's. After some considerable thought, I feel that I should just be 3 betting here. While I'm not against flatting sometimes, it's probably going to put me in some odd spots post flop with the BTN being an aggro monkey. The reason I flat is to make the pot look really juicy for the SB to shove. Don't hate/love it.
As predictable as a cuckoo clock, BTN 3b to 27,000. This raise sizing was quite large for him. I read it as weak, and immediately opt to go with the 4bet/call it off route. This would not be the first raising war we had gotten into. I wasn't folding this time. His normal 3 bet size in this spot would be more in the 18-21K range.
SB chickens out and mucks. BB decides to 4b to 72,500. WTF???? UTG folds. Hero scratches head and hates life.
It's extremely possible that BB picked up on this: UTG opens (Standard). Hero flats (likely a weak drawy kind of hand he wants to play in position). BTN 3b because he senses weakness and sees a good spot to resteal. This means it's a great spot for BB to 4b and show table who's boss. Could also be that BB has AA or KK.
Thoughts? I don't really think that flatting is really an option here. It's 25% of our stack. If we are only caller, it still puts us in odd spot post flop and we are going to have to dig deep to win. If BTN calls, we are now in a huge pot caught in the middle. Not a fun spot to be getting into.
That means, at least in my eyes, it's a fold/shove(maybe just 5b to 125K and call it off??). Anyone else have any fun ideas?
April 8, 2013
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Seems like a pretty clear fold. His sizing seems to indicate he would be willing to call off against utg which makes his range look very strong. I think I like 3betting pre based on the buttons tendencies and the fact that a utg open and utg1 flat shouldn’t look good for a sb to stick 25bbs in light. I’m 3betting to 21k.
October 21, 2013
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I like the flat pre flop, since you give: – SB the cìhance to shove – D or BB chance to squeeze…What happens in this hand is kinda the worst possible scenario but I think no one can tell you what to do in this spot simply because is totally based on the flow at the table and by the image /recent actions of each and every player (which of course cannot be summed up in 2lines on a post forum)…So imo you are the only one who can this spot at best, what joe says it's true that the sizing looks committed to OR but again if BB is a good player he could have done this intentionally just to let you all overthink and give him more credit…So i really cannot tell you what the right move is and i think no one can
March 26, 2013
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Quick question: Is this a full table or are you now 5 handed? That changes the dynamics a fair bit here regarding ranges.
Pre-flop: I think I would just 3b to take initiative in this spot. The SB stack size seems a little too big to feel strongly that he will squeeze with a really wide range but he might for sure. Also, with an aggro 3b guy OTB I prefer a 3b myself to take the 3b play away from him. If he opts to 4b us then we have to reevaulate.
As played: I'm not so sure that the button 3b sizing is overly large with a raiser + caller. It is 3.1x opener's raise and with your call in there it seems reasonable with his whole 3b squeeze range. With this in mind, I think the 4b from BB looks super strong and he is definitely committed to calling a 5b from the UTG player who he presumably knows is tight/solid. Therefore against everyone's ranges here I think you can safely fold JJ and not try to level yourself too heavy in this spot.
November 4, 2013
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We were still at 4 tables here I think, so we would have been either 8 or 9 handed. Guess I could have clarified that in the OP.
I fully agree that it would have been the best line to just 3b it myself, but I was trying to get tricky. The SB was def the kind of player to shove this exact spot to steal the money in there. When I stated that UTG was a solid player, I think it might of been slightly mis-understood. Almost all the players this deep are solid. I just meant that he wasn't the kind of player to get out of line, but he would absoultely be capable of stealing from UTG. (At the time I thought he was some crazy euro {Mostly because he never spoke} but in the end he was just a lucky American – he was the one who cracked my KK on day 3 with QQ and went on to win the event).
In regards to the 3b sizing, it was big for his standard sizing in this spot. This was by far not his first 3b, and I was quite used to his sizing by this point. I had noticed he went slightly larger about 25% of the time, so it struck me as a habitual response. I would presume this was the times he was strong, except when we got in our raising war earlier he had opted for his smaller sizing. I ended up folding QQ pre there (and was correct as he showed AA).
March 26, 2013
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Accepting all of the reads here the thing that really nags me about this hand is that Darren Elias commits against UTG so has to have a hand with which he can call off an UTG jam for 50bbs. He is getting 2.64/1 v UTG if UTG jams. For me this means something like TT+, AK+ as a minimum, maybe even tighter. He is putting in 25% of his stack in a spot where he could get the job done cheaper without looking weak as if he is running a bluff.
I also feel his 72,500 sizing almost commits him against you as well but not quite. He will be getting 1.84/1 if you decide to pile it which would be an incredibly tough spot for him to fold if he has a strongish hand but possible given he would have to factor you for immense strength.
I think the crux of this spot is simply whether you believe Darren Elias would commit himself for 50bbs with a range of hands that you have the right equity against to call/shove. Also, we need to factor in that he has three active players to get this through as a bluff (assuming he is bluffing) and at least 2 of them could have very strong hands. In addition, you have to factor in some weight for the button not being on a pure bluff here. I still think his sizing could easily be a very strong hand too.
For me this one looks a huge guessing game and when we have to purely guess on the fly it is probably better to fold a hand like JJ rather than risk being totally crushed for almost 80bbs.
November 4, 2013
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Your last sentence was pretty much the sum of my 45 second tank (which is actually quite long for me). 80BB is just way too many chips to be in this spot and be wrong about him re-stealing.
I ended up folding, as I had 2BB in the pot and didn't need to commit any more in this spot. Better spots would come up. BTN called. I don't want to talk about the flop, as I'm trying to be not results orientated. BB bet 60k and BTN folded.
At the end of it, I think that this is definitely still a spot we should be 3 betting more often than not. JJ in late position deep in a tournament like this is too strong to be playing funky very often. One of the rules I'm surmising about my plans, and keeping things simple is; 'if more than 1 other player has to make a specific action to make this plan work out how I want, then it's probably not the best plan'. There was simply too many cogs having to work together in this spot for my master plan of limping a strong hand to work out smoothly.
March 26, 2013
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I agree generally with keeping things simple and relying on several actions to make a plan work can go spectacularly wrong for sure. For example, if your button aggro monkey had 25bbs along with SB on a similar stack then the flat would be good as one of them rates to pile it in with dominated holdings and they cannot 3b/f. Much more simple decision.
One consideration here with an aggro monkey behind that argues strongly for a 3b is the fact that aggro monkey can 4b pretty light here. This in turn forces the players behind and the original opener to play pretty honestly imo. From there if you get action from players behind or UTG I think you can safely fold and if it ends up heads up with the 4b guy then you still have flexibility.
Anyway, as played I think a fold was fine. God knows what the button can flat with there and then fold to a weak cbet.
November 4, 2013
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His flat and then fold on the flop confused me quite a bit, but I didn't really put a lot of consideration into it. It really doesn't make any sense at all, except BB is setting up the turn nicely for a shove… so if he really has nothing on this flop and was purely speculating (in a spot he shouldn't be) then a fold is his only option.
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